20-11-2003 03:49									#31
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quote: have power, they have words. Power is the difference between racism and prejudice. I have the power to benifit from race prejudice, i.e., I benefit from racism. People can make assuptions about my character because I'm white, but when it comes down to it, I have more power over them than they do over me.

Not necessarily. There are laws against discrimination by race and gender, and you probably won't find any trouble finding some ultraultraPC group to foot a lawyer's bill for you.

Even if you can't sue an employer for race discrimination, at least you can ***** about it for millenia on end. Let me give you some examples, to show you what I mean:
-Black man "John Q Doe" isn't hired by white employer "James Smith". He takes up the oppurtunity whenever possible to ***** on endlessly about it, and/or files a race discrimination lawsuit when a similarly skilled white man gets the job.
-White man "John Q Doe" isn't hired by black employer "James Smith." He takes up the oppurtunity whenever possible to ***** on endlessly about it, and/or files a race discrimination lawsuit when a smilarly skilled black man gets the job.
-For the purpose of this discussion, assume the employer actually was a hothead racist bastard, in both instances where he was black and white.

A few questions:
-Which man will be taken more seriously? The white man or the black man?
-Is it fair that we treat the black man's case more seriously than the white man's case?

	20-11-2003 03:54									#32
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one case is more believable than the other

	20-11-2003 04:06									#33
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Does 'race' still matter orange?


It does in Australia. If you're an Aborigine you won't see people like you advertising things on television. You won't see people like you reading the news. You might see an occasional sporting celebrity, or politician, but that's it. You probably won't have mains electricity, or running water, you won't have the same life expectancy, you will have had a range of childhood diseases eradicated or prevented in white or non-white children, you will live in sub-standard housing, you will be more likely to develop alcoholism, your children will be more likely to encounter problems with chroming or glue sniffing or petrol sniffing. You won't be treated with respect and you will have people like Pauline Hanson complaining about state hand outs and money being wasted on you.

I think some of the people on the course meant well- but telling people that 'people of colour' can't be racist is so 1980s. I'm sure that the parents of some of my Viet Namese or Chinese friends would die of apoplexy at the thought of their children coming home with a black partner. But that's not the point- as long as there are unscrupulous people seeking to exploit supposed racial differences then 'diversity' training for all its faults, is a good thing.

By the way, if you looked 'indian' and were from South America you'd probably be hacked off if some idjit had mistaken you for a janitor, especially if you studied hard and sacrificed to get where you were. Your first thought wouldn't be the dignity of labour and the Rights of Man.

Now you might say you judge people as individuals, and I applaud you for that. I hope to treat people as individuals too, but other people don't. As a friend of mine said, when people get upset at her, it's usually a short time before the 'black' thing comes out of the bag:

'You black this, you black that....'

As Carol said- "What, they're telling me I'm black? Like I just found out?"

If you want to stigmatize someone treating them as a 'colour' or a 'race' or even now as a combination of 'race' and religion is the easiest way to dehumanize them and stop thinking of them as an individual or a human being.

	20-11-2003 04:06									#34
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell A few questions: -Which man will be taken more seriously? The white man or the black man? -Is it fair that we treat the black man's case more seriously than the white man's case?

You make an assumption that isn't necessarily true. It depends greatly on the listener. The further to the right one is, the more likely they are to believe the reverse of what you write. I almost never see Caligastia or the diplomat or others of their ilk post about racist discrimination that happens to Black people, but oh, let a white person claim they've been a victim of discrimination and we don't hear the end of it.

Anyway, racism in employment isn't quite so blatent, most of the time. Sure, there are places like Denny's of Cracker Barrel (name should be a clue, folks) that have a repeated probelm with race. When I worked for Wag's (a competitor of Denny's that was bought out by Shoney's in the 90s), they had an unwritten policy of no minorities in management. We actually had one Hispanic manager, but he got less than $1 above minimum wage, when all the rest of the managers got more. Well, how do you prove something unwritten like that?

	20-11-2003 04:11									#35
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BTW, there's nothing wrong with viewing people by color. Saying you don't see color is saying that there's something wrong with color. It's like saying, I don't see lepers, we're all just people. Black folks like being Black. They aren't ashamed of being Black. When you say you don't see someone as a Black person, you're saying to them (intended or not) there's something wrong with being seen as being Black.

	20-11-2003 04:14									#36
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Che, I'm going to ask you to commit the impossible and guess what the average American would say in response to the hypothetical situations.

Or, alternatively, answer them yourself.

	20-11-2003 04:15									#37
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quote: Thanks if you read all of that!

Yeah, I read it. And it strikes me as just another example of how liberal, PC campuses corrupt the notion of diversity as it relates not to race, but to thought and opinion as well.

Everything from these crap "workshops" to "hate speech" codes has had a chilling effect on free speech on a lot of campuses. When I was 20 or 21, I had no problem speaking out on controversial issues or expressing an unpopular opinion, especially with regards to race. I would be very wary if I were in the same situations today.

Hang in there.

	20-11-2003 04:20									#38
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Does 'race' still matter orange? It does in Australia. If you're an Aborigine you won't see people like you advertising things on television. You won't see people like you reading the news. You might see an occasional sporting celebrity, or politician, but that's it. You probably won't have mains electricity, or running water, you won't have the same life expectancy, you will have had a range of childhood diseases eradicated or prevented in white or non-white children, you will live in sub-standard housing, you will be more likely to develop alcoholism, your children will be more likely to encounter problems with chroming or glue sniffing or petrol sniffing. You won't be treated with respect and you will have people like Pauline Hanson complaining about state hand outs and money being wasted on you. I think some of the people on the course meant well- but telling people that 'people of colour' can't be racist is so 1980s. I'm sure that the parents of some of my Viet Namese or Chinese friends would die of apoplexy at the thought of their children coming home with a black partner. But that's not the point- as long as there are unscrupulous people seeking to exploit supposed racial differences then 'diversity' training for all its faults, is a good thing. By the way, if you looked 'indian' and were from South America you'd probably be hacked off if some idjit had mistaken you for a janitor, especially if you studied hard and sacrificed to get where you were. Your first thought wouldn't be the dignity of labour and the Rights of Man. Now you might say you judge people as individuals, and I applaud you for that. I hope to treat people as individuals too, but other people don't. As a friend of mine said, when people get upset at her, it's usually a short time before the 'black' thing comes out of the bag: 'You black this, you black that....' As Carol said- "What, they're telling me I'm black? Like I just found out?" If you want to stigmatize someone treating them as a 'colour' or a 'race' or even now as a combination of 'race' and religion is the easiest way to dehumanize them and stop thinking of them as an individual or a human being.

I have to disagree with leftie handouts.

giving people things is not the way to make them happier in life. Working and supporting yourself is.

	20-11-2003 04:25									#39
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Young people should not be the trainers for diversity. They lack tact, understand, and nuance. There was a way to try and explain her point without being so crass. There is a certain intensity when you are young and full of ideas that isn't very good when subtlty is called for.

	20-11-2003 04:43									#40
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Of course its not fair. I shouldn't be paid more because I have a piece of flesh dangling between my legs, but that's the way it is.

Wow. I've got a pair of gonads and an erectile tube between mine. Frankly I think you deserve some compensation for being mutilated. Would you like to talk about how it happened? Sometimes that helps.

	20-11-2003 04:59									#41
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Frankly I can agree with the idea that the black girl should be allowed to talk about problems with the black RA, but the white person should be required to bring his/her problems to his/her assigned RA even if that RA is another color. The black girl needs racial sensitivity from her counselor, while the white person probably doesn't. OTOH, if a white student has a really big issue about dealing with black authority figures it would probably be prudent to let them talk it over with a white RA.

I think Che has hit on a crucial problem. If the program is going to tackle problems like addressing racial issues it should be guided by someone who has more experience with people.

	20-11-2003 05:05									#42
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quote: The black girl needs racial sensitivity from her counselor

Thus it's only fair to assume the white person needs racial sensitivity from her (or his) counselor.

Unless you're racist. Are you racist, Doctor?

	20-11-2003 05:07									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Is it really reverse racism?

Sure it is. Protesting some white people's opinion that black people are inferior by having the opinion that all white people are racist? That's about as clear an example as I could give.

quote: some of the stuff you said was racist was only borderline.

If a white person said that they could never be friends with a black person because of their race, everyone would scream "racism" (myself included)

quote: Can you really be racists towards the ruling race?

Absolutely. But there is no such thing as the 'ruling race'.

	20-11-2003 05:12									#44
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Does it ****ing matter? I've got a $60K a year job, based, in part, on being a white man. Boo ****ing hoo. Someone called me a racists. Guess I'll cry all the way to the bank.

Since when do all white men have $60K a year jobs? That's a REAL big leap there. My dad certainly doesn't, and he works two jobs (12 hours a day) just to get half that.

How about the same thing in reverse?

quote: Racism. Does it ****ing matter? I'm an American, I'm part of the 'ruling nation' based in part on my ancestors being brought over to this land hundreds of years ago. Boo ****ing hoo. Someone called me a n****r.

It doesn't matter what your status. An injustice is still an injustice.

	20-11-2003 05:35									#45
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Orange, do you have to be a Hall advisor? Surely there could be another option.

One of my best friends used to be my RA, and I just found out that he is Catholic. All of the time I talked with him, he could not talk about his religion for fear of someone getting offended and reporting him to his superiors.

Now we get along fabulously since he is no longer an RA, and I am no longer living on that floor.

These groups that you talk about, black people wanting to hang out with black people to be 'understood' just reinforces perceptions of racism. I really don't care where you come from, I'll talk with you and I don't need to go to my little group of 'white' people when I need to be comforted.

	20-11-2003 05:36									#46
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Does 'race' still matter orange? [quote]It does in Australia. If you're an Aborigine you won't see people like you advertising things on television.

Oh c'mon now...the reason for that is obviously economics. What population of Australia is native? I'll tell you...about 1%. Furthermore, Aboriginies are some of the poorest people on this planet. It would be financial suicide to try to appeal to native Australians as a market because you wouldn't make a dime of it back. It has nothing to do with 'racism'. It's that people would prefer not to waste money. If there were a greater number of Aboriginies, and they had more economic power, you'd see more of them in advertisements, and you'd certainly see more people trying to appeal to them as a market. For now, Australian ad agencies will stick to advertising to the overwhelming majority (90%) of white Europeans.

Perfect example is here in the US. Native Americans make up about 2% of the population, and once again are quite poor over all, while African Americans make up about 13% of the population, and have far greater economic power than Native Americans. While they too are less powerful, economically, than European Americans, they have enough Economic power to be a targeted market of consumers. McDonalds, Lugz, MTV, Foot Locker, hell...FUBU ("For Us By Us") and BET ("Black Entertainment Television")...who are they appealing to in their ads? It's completely economic. The advertising industry thinks with its wallet.

quote: You won't see people like you reading the news. You might see an occasional sporting celebrity, or politician, but that's it. You probably won't have mains electricity, or running water, you won't have the same life expectancy, you will have had a range of childhood diseases eradicated or prevented in white or non-white children, you will live in sub-standard housing, you will be more likely to develop alcoholism, your children will be more likely to encounter problems with chroming or glue sniffing or petrol sniffing. You won't be treated with respect and you will have people like Pauline Hanson complaining about state hand outs and money being wasted on you.

But the same could be said of whites who live in poor conditions. Yes, I understand that most minorities are of the lower echelons of the economic world, especially in America, but that doesn't mean that race and economics are equal determinants of where you'll end up in life.

quote: I think some of the people on the course meant well- but telling people that 'people of colour' can't be racist is so 1980s. I'm sure that the parents of some of my Viet Namese or Chinese friends would die of apoplexy at the thought of their children coming home with a black partner.

Exactly, and that's also racist.

quote: But that's not the point- as long as there are unscrupulous people seeking to exploit supposed racial differences then 'diversity' training for all its faults, is a good thing.

Not when it is conducted in this way. It only turns people off to the topic, and makes people resent it even more. I should not have to pay for the idiocy of others who look like me, just as black people should not be held accountable for the actions of people who look like them.

quote: By the way, if you looked 'indian' and were from South America you'd probably be hacked off if some idjit had mistaken you for a janitor, especially if you studied hard and sacrificed to get where you were. Your first thought wouldn't be the dignity of labour and the Rights of Man.

But that's wrong! I know I wouldn't feel that way now if someone thought I was a janitor. I would just tell them that I wasn't. Same as if someone thought I had an 'important' job.

quote: Now you might say you judge people as individuals, and I applaud you for that. I hope to treat people as individuals too, but other people don't. As a friend of mine said, when people get upset at her, it's usually a short time before the 'black' thing comes out of the bag: 'You black this, you black that....'

I don't do that, and I think it's absolutely wrong.

quote: If you want to stigmatize someone treating them as a 'colour' or a 'race' or even now as a combination of 'race' and religion is the easiest way to dehumanize them and stop thinking of them as an individual or a human being.

Well I don't do that, so why I should I be thought of as a racist just because I'm white?

	20-11-2003 05:41									#47
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara BTW, there's nothing wrong with viewing people by color. Saying you don't see color is saying that there's something wrong with color. It's like saying, I don't see lepers, we're all just people. Black folks like being Black. They aren't ashamed of being Black. When you say you don't see someone as a Black person, you're saying to them (intended or not) there's something wrong with being seen as being Black.

No. This would only be so if I viewed white people as 'white'. I'm not saying you shouldn't be proud to be black, I'm only saying that 'white' should not be thought of as 'racist'...that is the SAME THING as thinking that 'black' is equal to 'criminal' or 'stupid' or 'inferior'. If a black person likes being black, good! I'm glad they're proud of who they are. Just allow me the same right! I find it very interesting to talk to people who come from different parts of the world, about what it's like to live there, but I'm not as curious about people (White Black Asian or otherwise) who grew up in the US. For example, my favourite University professor is from Kenya.

	20-11-2003 05:52									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Orange, do you have to be a Hall advisor? Surely there could be another option.

Do I have to be? No.

Do I want to be? Yes, and I'm busting my ass to get it. There's a bit of a rule that you can't be a first year hall director if you'll also be student teaching, but it's been done by those who really step it up and show they're able. I've been doing just that.

Not only would it REALLY help me out in paying back loans after I graduate (HDs make about 4 times as much as RAs) but it would also give me some credibility as a professional and something to put on my resumé. I'm already qualified to do it now (in fact, as the "Administrative Coordinator" for my part of campus, most people think I already do the HD job)

quote: These groups that you talk about, black people wanting to hang out with black people to be 'understood' just reinforces perceptions of racism. I really don't care where you come from, I'll talk with you and I don't need to go to my little group of 'white' people when I need to be comforted.

I agree. I remember when we used to talk about "The Booth" someone said to another white RA "Well if you think it's just a black clique, why don't you come over and chat with us sometime. We're not exclusive."

Fair enough. Even though personally I wouldn't approach any table unless I knew someone there and had something to say to them. So one of my friends who is particularly outgoing says "Wait a minute, I did that, and no one talked to me. No one introduced me. They acted as if I wasn't there at all." He actually did know someone there (another RA) and went to talk to him, and then tried to get into a conversation, and he said he felt as if the people were just looking at him as if he had no right to be there. Very unwelcoming.

I'm not saying all black people do that, I'm just saying even when people (of any race) do try to break down those imaginary walls, sometimes they aren't welcomed anyway.

	20-11-2003 06:07									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Frankly I can agree with the idea that the black girl should be allowed to talk about problems with the black RA, but the white person should be required to bring his/her problems to his/her assigned RA even if that RA is another color. The black girl needs racial sensitivity from her counselor, while the white person probably doesn't. OTOH, if a white student has a really big issue about dealing with black authority figures it would probably be prudent to let them talk it over with a white RA.

My view is this: if your opinion is that anyone can go to any RA that they feel comftorable talking to (whether it's because of Race, religion, gender, etc.) than fine. But I hate the double standards. It can't be ok for some, and not ok for others.

quote: I think Che has hit on a crucial problem. If the program is going to tackle problems like addressing racial issues it should be guided by someone who has more experience with people.

Generally speaking, HDs are in their mid 20s and are either graduate students or research assistants. They are also trained on facilitating these things by the upper tiers of reslife (For example, my HD was trained on how to facilitate the discussion of which I spoke)

	20-11-2003 06:58									#50
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orange:

I figured financial concerns would be the reason.

Is the money worth enough to you to sacrifice your time and energy?

Sometime it's best to cut your losses rather than sacrificing your principles.

	20-11-2003 07:03									#51
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I'd like to work within the system. I just can't completely trash it, or else they'll purposely overlook everything I've been doing on campus simply because "I'm not diverse enough"

The amount of people hired by residence life is about 30% minority (of some sort), but this is where the whole 'underqualified' quesiton comes into mind. Nearly half the people who leave the job or are fired are minorities. I know plenty of qualified people who didn't get the job, and quite a few minorities who I seriously question how they were ever considered (for example, a self righteous black 'minister' who felt that all gay people were sinners, and abused his power within his building to no end and an Indian guy who partied every night, often with his underaged residents!!!)

	20-11-2003 07:33									#52
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I'm not saying trash the system, I'm saying after you have finished your current term to not carry on to the next year. Then you will not have to worry so much about diversity, since you will no longer be responsible for your floor.

Again, it's your call. I personally would not have put up with any PC bull though I am often on the receiving end of the benefits.

	20-11-2003 07:41									#53
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In my uni people called something racist at the drop of a hat (probably a good deal worse than what orange is dealing with, my uni is where they choose to flim PCU after all) living in a country with real racism really puts all that in perspective.
Luckily for me I've got the right skin color so I get postive racism and end up being treated like a celebrity sometimes because I'm white and people are always really really nice to me and always really helpful about dealing with the language barrier. I get people giving me drinks in bars and middle aged guys telling me they want to be my friend. I very much doubt I'd get any of this if I was Chinese-American or (god forbid) Japanese.
I've heard some real horror stories about what black english teachers have had to deal with here. Basically most of what people know about black people here is from watching Rap/Hip Hop music videos so the kids think they're really cool but lots of adults see them as very little short of monsters. I'm sure that if I was black my school's enrollment would take a big hit for that reason alone so blacks face massive and blatant discrimination in getting jobs here (ie getting job offers and then never hearing from them again after they realize that the person is black).

	20-11-2003 07:50									#54
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quote: Anyway, racism in employment isn't quite so blatent, most of the time.

Studies have been done in which two sets of resumes were mailed out one with generic names and one with stereotypical black names, the ones with generic names did significantly better.

	20-11-2003 09:13									#55
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Orange

Just finished reading the entire thread and since it appeares you would be considered a racist for using the MLK quote, I suggest you have a custom tee shirt inprinted with the following:

It's not just what your born with, but what you choose to be.
And it's not just what your given but what you do with what you got

EDIT: Spelling.

	20-11-2003 09:17									#56
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What the hell did you just say?

	20-11-2003 09:35									#57
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Orange

Should I post in a different variant of English?

	20-11-2003 09:38									#58
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I think orange makes very good points. I also think that "diversity training" is absolutely idiotic. I'm not going to act differently around you just because you might have been oppressed in the past. I tend to have a very sarcastic sense of humor, for example, and if you don't know me, you might think I'm an *******. That isn't the case. People who know me don't think so, and I don't care what others think. I'm not going to forego making a sarcastic comment or observation about something that just happened because I fear offended someone - I'll rag on Jesse Jackson, John F. Kennedy, Michael Jackson, Martin Luther King Jr., Dubya, myself, you, and Mother Teresa if the opportunity presents itself. **** the diversity training.

Well, that's my viewpoint

	20-11-2003 09:42									#59
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Oh, and by the way, my above attitude is very present in the workplace, and I have that attitude as a supervisor in charge of a few dozen people. Yet I'm friends with many of them, and none of them actively dislike me - and no, they aren't all white males

	20-11-2003 09:47									#60
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Thus it's only fair to assume the white person needs racial sensitivity from her (or his) counselor. Unless you're racist. Are you racist, Doctor?

Oohh, Sticks and stones.

I'm sorry, but white people don't personally suffer anywhere nearly as much from the psychological effects of racial prejudice as do black people. The black girl needs a place where she feels safe. After all, if the race ratio at your school is like that of the typical American university then she is surrounded all day by people unlike her. She needs a place where she can let down her guard. Eventually she may acclimate to the environment. The situation of the white student is completely different.