26-11-2003 18:29									#31
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I'm surprised no one mentioned the nukes in SMAC yet. Now THOSE were nukes. not only werte there 4 different grades of nukes which did different damadge, they totally made you FEAR nuklear war like yo' momma's boot!

BOOM! Not only is the city gone, but theres a massive crater were it was, screw pollution, it's tectonic turbulance! The biggest nuke could waste 3 cities if you placed it right, which is totally realistic considering the 50 megaton h-bombs the soviets had.

Ofcourse, civ3 missed out on a lot of SMAC advances and in many ways was a step back. wierd huh?

(I also hasten to add that diplomacy CAN be programmed with this destructive force: witness SMAC. The UN could vote out anti nuke laws and such. I am really sad the C3C didn't turn the UN into some kindof upgraded diplomacy forum. )

	26-11-2003 19:51									#32
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ah yes, good ol' planet busters.

now THERE was a nuke

	26-11-2003 20:29									#33
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There should definately be some diffrent grades of nukes....based on power rather than range.

Free fall bombs (must be loaded onto bombers) could damage units/cities in a single square. with a 50/50 chance survival for all units, wonders, city improvements and population points.

Tactical Missile. Short range but more powerful than free falls. (can be loaded/fired from bombers for extra range) they have a 50% chance of destroying each unit but 70% chance of destroying wonders, improvement or pop point. They still only affect one square (while polution affects upto three random squares.)


ICBM...Built by cities but rebased to silos (and only targetable fron silos). Icbms pack a major punch. 70% chance of killing units and 90% chance against wonders, improvements and population points. They affect the target square and those adjoining and polution/terrain damage is catastrophic.

SLBM....built in coastal cities as a "super Unit" SLBMs are expensive and powerful systems. the unit itself represents the submarine AND its full flight of 8 missiles. Each missiles is independantly targeted and after firing the last missile the sub is lost. SlbM attacks have a 70% chance against units and 70% chance of destroying wonders, improvements and population.


The % attack values against diffrent sorts of targets should not only make nukes more "realistic" but that much more worrying. Knowing that im gonna lose half of my population i can cope with....the chance of losing every last one...thats worrying.
The diffrent grades of weapons means that a real "escalatory" situation can arise giving the chance to "turn off" the fighting before things get to the "stratigic level".

The other important aspect of nuclear weapons should be the political response. I find it difficult to see my allies declaring war on me when i just nuked our common enemy. Embargos and loss of rep...yes but declarations of war against a state willing and able to use nukes from a non nuclear state are pretty unlikely.

	01-12-2003 06:34									#34
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Has anyone else had the world declare war on them for using nukes? Thats happend to me a couple of times ill drop a nuke and everyone goes to war with me. What ever happend to cold wars? With incredably powerful nukes would you wever invade another country that possesed nucluar capabaities? I know i wouldnt Nucular plants should not melt down haw many times has this hapend in the real world? I modded this out.
For a story I once turned an entire country into a orange wasteland lol.

	01-12-2003 20:48									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber Nukes do seem lame in CIV 3, but if it were to show the true destructive power of nukes (or even a close approximation) then we would just end up with an AI asking us if we would enjoy a nice game of checkers.

But would it play a good game of checkers?

	01-12-2003 22:24									#36
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This is a game not reality !!!!

	01-12-2003 23:28									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Rasputin This is a game not reality !!!!

We know its a game....but surely the point of THIS game is to allow us to "rewrite history" in our own image and if we can have realistic Tanks and Planes and Stratigic resources etc etc..then its not too much to ask that we can have realistic nukes....if we're suposed to fear the Sword men in ancient times and those damned cavalry in the early industrial age then we should be bloody terrified of the mad Fascists across the sea who after wiping out all oposition on their own continent turns their nuclear armed and beedy little eyes at us.

If i wanted to play something UN-realistic i would'nt be playing civ...i'd be playing star wars or something.

	02-12-2003 00:01									#38
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there are always trade offs between playabilty and reality. whilst i did prefer the nukes from civ 2 in that they complety killed all units in a city, and has taken ages to get used to civ 3 ones, i find that i still use them sparingly and hopefully have built missile defence before hand. it is so cool to see that laser from space wipe out the icbm before it hits my city

	02-12-2003 02:41									#39
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I learned a lot about nukes from just reading in the post. one thing I do know about nukes is everyone loose when you use them. They are bad and we all know that. The only thing is the game should make that known. you use a nuke and there and you have to pay. the best representation of nuke in a game was Alpha Centauri. you use a nuke and what ever you hit was gone. no polution no this or that. the spot on the map was gone and water replaced it. no getting it back just gone. now that was beautiful to see but the consequences you suffered for using a nuke was even worse. all countries attacked you and you pretty much was in a bad situation. now it took forever to build one of these planet busters but it was worth it. and rule number 1 you never attacked a country with a planet buster that also had a planet buster because you don't know where they may choose to use theres. your most productive city? your capital? you didn't take a chance. in that game you rarely seen a nuke fly even if you were the first country to get them.

	03-12-2003 23:12									#40
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It's very difficult to implement a realistic nuclear war effect as the world (thank God!!) hasn't experienced any full scale nuclear war yet. For playability, I think the current ICBMs should increase their effect range to all 20 squars in a city's production area, not only the 9 base ones. Also, using any nuke, should create some random pollution maybe in a range of 3 outside the effect area to emulate how radioactivity is brought with the wind.

I think however the global effects are good as they are. If you'll end up in a nuclear war, with maybe 50 launches, the effects would be catastrophic. Not only do you have lot of pollution to clean up, but IIRC the terrain might have changed as well where the nukes have stroke. And the global warming will take care of your healthy areas at an accelerated rate.

	04-12-2003 00:09									#41
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well, the problem with nukes is balancing. I mean sure they're underpowered in the game, but when you increase their power they might easily become overpowered and you'd just get a science race towards nukes. They're very tricky to balance.
Also it wouldn't be fun when a small country that has nothing to lose blows your civ back to the stone age and changes half the world into desert right when you're conquering his territory.

	04-12-2003 00:13									#42
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you make a good point. there should be down sides to trying to even aquire nukes and down sides to nation having to maintain nukes. like cost being very high. and very hard to even becoming a nuclear state. there are not that many nuclear countries in the world. Just make it very hard to get, really hard to maintain and very bad for everyone once they are used. make the fallout of using a nuke in ones own nation almost unbearable or something. but they have to be more realistic

	04-12-2003 05:57									#43
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There should be a better diplomacy toward nukes and cold war's added into games two superpowers with hundreds of them aimed at one another everyone just waiting any second the world could turn into a nucular waste land. Also be able to get better peace agreements like a S.A.L.T agreement. I agree with the hard to maintain thing that ended the cold war well kind of. Ahhh nothing like nucular winter

	04-12-2003 12:37									#44
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Still haven't used or seen nukes in civ3(it's a matter of playing style) but I remember hating them passionately in civ2. The AI there didn't seem to have any restrictions on their use. On several occasions I conquered a city, only to get it nuked by a third civ. Just using it for the fun of it. From what I've been reading here, the civ3 AI has improved vastly on the use of nukes.

	18-12-2003 05:31									#45
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Only a few countries even have nucular capabilities and they know if the launched aginst us they would be totaly obliterated.
Well maby not weather to use nukes or not if we are nuked by N.Korea is a very conteraversial subject. nukes seem to be better at keeping peace then destroying.

	18-12-2003 10:36									#46
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Is there a diplomatic bent to possessing nuclear weapons in Civ3? Civ2 had the whole "our words are backed by nuclear weapons" thing, and I got the feeling (I may be mistaken) that having nukes made other civs less likely to attack or bully you, especially if they didn't have nukes.

	18-12-2003 13:06									#47
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The civ2 AI had no clue about sensible use of nukes(contradiction in terms, I know) Once they got it they would just toss them around like they were 1$ fireworks on new years eve.

Civ3 has improved a lot from what I've read.

	18-12-2003 16:55									#48
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I think that is true that the AI evaluated the possession, or lack thereof, in its efforts to size up the enemy.

I miss that "our words are backed with nuclear weapons" quote from the AI.

	18-12-2003 20:32									#49
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Oh please. I don't miss it at all. Last time I saw it was after being on the receiving end of a multiple nuclear attack: 4 civs (including one that has always been friendly and never declared war on me!) dropped 20 or so nukes on me, about 3 or 4 turns after one of them stole nuclear fission from me the turn I finished building Manhattan Project. How about that for liberal use of nuclear power?

	18-12-2003 21:10									#50
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arg. i KNEW when i modded the rules for my new game of c3c i forgot something... global warming. got to turn that nonsense off.

anyway, as for nukes... it's busters or bust, to my mind.

of course, i DID use nukes in my last game - i'd isolated a rather large portion of the zulu army in no-man's land (poor fools had sent everything they could after a barb hut halfway across the map - this ai behavior REALLY has to change) and so, when they finally declared war on me (i demanded they leave my territory after making sure it was impossible... after a couple turns, they got fed up ) i nuked the stack a couple times. i was less than impressed that it took two icbms to take out about 30 units, and there were STILL survivors.

but it was no man's land. one of my squares got some pollution, but hey. the other remaining civ didn't have a problem, as i didn't nuke enemy territory.

	18-12-2003 22:34									#51
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Despite being a crappy game, the nuclear war in Super Powers was great.

	19-12-2003 03:56									#52
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Another thing in smac/x was reliable missile defense, and a fairly complicated global warming/eco system response to tossing around planet busters like confetti.
These things just don't exist in Civ3. I think they should have just done the civ2 nuke model.

	19-12-2003 05:59									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Dr. A. Cula Oh please. I don't miss it at all. Last time I saw it was after being on the receiving end of a multiple nuclear attack: 4 civs (including one that has always been friendly and never declared war on me!) dropped 20 or so nukes on me, about 3 or 4 turns after one of them stole nuclear fission from me the turn I finished building Manhattan Project. How about that for liberal use of nuclear power?

I don't miss the questionable tactics/strategy...I just miss the proclamation each time. Kinda made me laugh.

	20-12-2003 03:00									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Despite being a crappy game, the nuclear war in Super Powers was great.

Yeah, that was fun. Unwieldy interface though.

	20-12-2003 03:17									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner I don't miss the questionable tactics/strategy...I just miss the proclamation each time. Kinda made me laugh.

Point.

Civ3 has it's moments too. Ramses once threatened me with war unless I gave him tech/money... when I called his bluff he told me 'I was going to chrush your pathetic little civ but we lost the paperwork'

	20-12-2003 05:20									#56
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And we all love Mao's ridicolously bad jokes...

"our friendship will survive despite rocks raining on us.."
(or something like that)

	20-12-2003 22:30									#57
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Can the power of nukes be tweeked by a mod? Could a mod also add additional types of nukes?

	20-12-2003 22:32									#58
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Yes, the attack values could be altered....but I think the idea is that nothing survives the attack.

	22-12-2003 19:54									#59
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The "Mass Destruction Artillery"that someone imagined some time ago could be a Flak that can bombard 2-3 squares away, a big attack value (but nothing that much useful, let's not make howitzers...) and that can generate pollution on the square bombarded, representing nocive gases and such...

	22-12-2003 20:29									#60
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I use nukes whenever there's a chance that an ai is near victory. Nuke the capital and capture it before completion of spaceship. Nuke a string of cities and roll into them with MI or MA and clean up.


Many players shy away from nukes for some reason. I've never figured out why. If you are the strongest power in the game then who cares if the world declares war on you for using nukes? Never tried this in MP but I'm sure no one would ever want to play me again so I refrain from nukage in MP games.