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Yahweh Sabaoth
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The Heavens
Dec 2002
time: 05:32
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Dominae: I see your point about the map generator... but as agricultural gives half-priced aqueducts and hospitals (right?), people might still look at those and be tempted to play even if the start position is not optimal, right? Because people playing in a non-optimal start position are playing for a challenge, which they consider fun (whereas people like me just don't want their behinds to get kicked right off the bat and tend to reload, regardless of traits)
As far as I can tell, agricultural isn't the be-all-end-all trait. It's nice, but I think Industrious is still #1, because REXing only goes on for so long, and once the RCP bug is fixed, Commercial will probably still be damn good.
You might very well be right, but I think there's still hope.
But this is way OT I suppose.
One question that is on-topic I'd like to pose is: With the RNG giving the player so few luxuries, or so it seems, why would one want to high-tail it to Republic?
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
There will be no flogging here. |
* Dominae sadly puts away his new flogging machine.
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:32
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The mayans are definately a powerhouse for the human. Serious rexxing capabilities plus enslaving barbs and enemies early early in the game is quite an advantage, even if it means a bc, pre-republic golden age, an extra 10 workers overcomes it that early, IMHO.
I find my self pushing for phil, no matter what civ or landmass, hoping to trade for alpha (either for my orig techs or hut techs) and using the free tech on code of laws (though in my current game I chose construction). Then, if I need to, I whore out CoL and phil and get everything the AI has. Very powerful. I do find that if I don't beeline for phil, I am beaten by the AI, hence repub is not usually an option for me 
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
It's also absurd the advantage that a player gets when he or she restarts to get the perfect Agricultural River start. |
I would say "above average" rather than perfect. In a way, restarting a couple times or so to start on a river with an Agricultural civ isn't all that different from choosing an Archipelago map for a Seafaring civ (especially the Vikings) or a Pangea map for an Expansionist civ. Doing any of those things loads the dice a bit in the civ's favor, making the game not a valid test of how well the player could do with the same civ under less favorable conditions. (Although I'll admit that the difference for Agricultural civs depending on whether or not fresh water is available is probably a bit bigger.)
Also note that some AIs get better starting positions than others. Thus, if it averages taking three restarts to get a starting position I like on particular map settings, in an 8-civ game, there are probably a couple AIs with at least as good a starting position as I have. (And odds aren't bad that one of those civs is also agricultural.) In contrast, playing out a bad start practially guarantees that there will be AIs with better starting positions. So in terms of best-vs.-best, small numbers of restarts have an effect more along the lines of avoiding leaving the human player at a significant disadvantage than along the lines of providing an advantage. Perhaps more importantly for purposes of discussion on Apolyton, that small a number of restarts does not put my games outside the realm of "normal."
And a lot has to do with what kind of game a player wants. When I play solo, I tend far more in the "ultimate power" direction than in the "hard fought challenge" direction, so I fairly routinely restart a few times to get a starting position I like. Compared with what I do a lot of the time, the two restarts before my first game and probably about three or four before my second was on the low side, and I seriously doubt that I would have played either of those starts out in a solo game without the Agricultural trait.
Nathan
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Catt
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California - SF Bay Area
May 2002
time: 21:32
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Off-Topic:
quote:
Originally posted by steven8r
quote:
Originally posted by SirOsis
Does anyone know if the Crusaders are supported units? |
Crusaders do NOT cost anything. Same with Ancient Cavalry. Both Temple of Zeus and Knights Templar = free units! |
I interpret SirOsis' original question to be whether or not the free units require upkeep costs like any other unit -- and the answer is that they most certainly do. Nontheless, a very small price to pay for free units or free mobile shields (move the units and disband in cities).
On-Topic: Usual caveat that it's too early with C3C to say for sure blah blah blah . . . if I am quite comfortable with my tech position, I will go for CoL before Phil so I can grab Republic for free (and would do the same with Polytheism for a free Monarchy if I wanted Monarchy); if I am at all uncertain, I think I'll tend for the safer play of just getting Phil, taking CoL for free, and then pursuing Rep or some other tech with native research. I've tried the "CoL first" approach three times (of 5 games), including once by accident when I forgot that Phil is now such a juicy tech. Once it worked, and twice it failed (meaning I was not first to Phil). Both failures (Emp and DemiGod levels, respectively) were due to overseas civs getting there before me and with only minimal warning (i.e., a wonder pop-up or two that indicated that the other continent was progressing more quickly than my own, but after I had pretty much committed to the approach).
Catt
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by DrSpike
Writing at 50 is ok........but turn the slider up for Philo. If you get it first at 50 its only because the AI chose not to research it, so the strategy is a bad one. |
yeah, the only way I could see that working is if you start with alpha or can hut it or trade for it very early on. Unfortunately I usually play civs that do not get alpha, so always a race and gamble, even on emperor for me.
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
I would say "above average" rather than perfect. In a way, restarting a couple times or so to start on a river with an Agricultural civ isn't all that different from choosing an Archipelago map for a Seafaring civ (especially the Vikings) or a Pangea map for an Expansionist civ. Doing any of those things loads the dice a bit in the civ's favor, making the game not a valid test of how well the player could do with the same civ under less favorable conditions. (Although I'll admit that the difference for Agricultural civs depending on whether or not fresh water is available is probably a bit bigger.)
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I wrote big long post about this here: On the Agricultural trait.
quote:
Also note that some AIs get better starting positions than others. Thus, if it averages taking three restarts to get a starting position I like on particular map settings, in an 8-civ game, there are probably a couple AIs with at least as good a starting position as I have. (And odds aren't bad that one of those civs is also agricultural.) In contrast, playing out a bad start practially guarantees that there will be AIs with better starting positions. So in terms of best-vs.-best, small numbers of restarts have an effect more along the lines of avoiding leaving the human player at a significant disadvantage than along the lines of providing an advantage.
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What you're not considering is that it's not you versus a particular AI, it's you versus all the AIs. Giving yourself a better start makes the whole game easier. Restarts only provide advantages. Your point only makes sense in a MP or PBEM environment.
Consequently, saying that some things are "too easy" or "too powerful" is often a direct reflection of the quality of your start, and not actually something in the game mechanics. On average, it is in fact a lot tougher to play the Philosophy game (on Emperor) than you make it out to be.
Dominae
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Yahweh Sabaoth
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The Heavens
Dec 2002
time: 05:32
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@Catt:
No, your reasoning is very sound, makes a lot of sense. I was just trying to figure a tech that would fit in before Philosophy, that would allow you to win the Philosophy race. I'm skeptical of the ability to get CoL before Philosophy consistently; hence, I suggested mathematics. But there are others. Mysticism is generally taken by someone by this point, but it is not, somehow, then that would make a good sub-goal.
On the other hand, CoL is very valuable for trading; if you're not looking to get Republic right away you might as well get CoL as your free tech.
For me, the optimal path would be to get Monarchy for free... but rarely do I have Polytheism at this point. And that's just my playstyle; I like the stability of Monarchy, and Republic tends to give me a headache. I'm still learning, you see.
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Catt
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California - SF Bay Area
May 2002
time: 21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
No, your reasoning is very sound, makes a lot of sense. I was just trying to figure a tech that would fit in before Philosophy, that would allow you to win the Philosophy race. I'm skeptical of the ability to get CoL before Philosophy consistently; hence, I suggested mathematics. But there are others. Mysticism is generally taken by someone by this point, but it is not, somehow, then that would make a good sub-goal.
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I guess my point was more along the lines of: (1) get to Philosophy first! You must secure the free tech; (2) about the only reason to detour from the Philosophy beeline if you've set your heart on Philosophy is to gamble that the detour itself will allow you to utilize the free tech in a more powerful manner. In other words, I would detour for Math, CoL, Mysticism, Polytheism, etc. only if the detour allowed me to utilize the free tech choice to better advantage. So, Nathan's point in this thread is that a CoL detour allows taking Republic as a free tech; a Polytheism detour allows selecting Monarchy as the free tech -- in both cases, the detour allows the player to use the free tech for (1) a much more expensive techs than others available, and (2) a much more beneficial tech to the player in most cases (i.e., get out of despotism).
Catt
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21-11-2003 23:45
There will be no flogging here. The luxury slider is indeed the answer - but with the combo of few luxuries and C3C's version of republic, that pretty much precludes having a strong military and being able to research. Which is good, of course, because that is to say you can't do everything at once.
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