25-11-2003 00:18									#61
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I accidentally did something that may or may not be considered an exploit, but it is definitely gaming the mechanics. At least I think this is how it worked out, I'll try to reproduce or someone else can verify, please.

My next game, I actually got Philo and the popup comes up asking what to research next.
Click "What's the Big Picture" or whatever takes you to the F6 screen. Pick a tech, any tech.
Hit F4 or go to any/all of the other management screens.
Go back to F6 and change which tech you are working on.
Now, exit the management screens. At this point, (or is it the beginning of the next turn?) you get another popup about finishing your research, what should we research next.

I think, though I could be misremembering, that as long as you don't leave the F1-F6 screens, your tech choice isn't final, so you should be able to, after finishing Philo, trade for a prereq, then choose the freebie.

You won't always get the techs you want from the AI, but you might be able to get techs that are cheap so you can use the freebie on a more expensive one. Assuming, of course, that the AI has techs you don't and is willing to trade, maybe even for Philo.

Exploit or just taking full advantage of the game mechanics?

	25-11-2003 00:45									#62
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It's borderline. Going to the F1 from "What's the big picture" and changing the sliders or tiles used by cities is definately an exploit.

On the other hand, the part of the purpose of the "What's the big picture" option is to be able to do this kind of thing.

I'd say it's allowed although the game mechanic you're taking advantage of is one which also allows exploits.

	25-11-2003 00:50									#63
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It smells of fish to me.

	25-11-2003 00:52									#64
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quote: Originally posted by ducki Exploit or just taking full advantage of the game mechanics?

To each his own on this one, I think. I would venture that most would consider the "reap high commerce and high shield tiles in the same turn" and the "one tile worked by two cities in one turn" tricks as clear exploits. But I think there is a lot less consensus on the other various production management tricks available through the dropdowns from pop-ups.

Personally, I have used the "trade tech before selecting a new tech" trick and the "change city build list" trick without any remorse. I don't like the "upgrade units" trick so much since they effectively don't lose a turn's movement, but I wouldn't say that there is a consensus on that one either. Only one person's thoughts, of course.

BTW, it's clear that at least in limited circumstances the AI uses the "change city build list" trick itself. During those wonder cascades, when a wonder is completed, potentially many additional wonders are completed by AIs in the same turn -- in each case, the AIs in question ended their previous production turn building Wonder X and started their next production turn by completing Wonder Y, meaning they must have switched builds before shields were added to the city.

Catt

	25-11-2003 00:54									#65
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Yes, that's probably an "exploit," but I say we put it to a poll and see what the majority response is. I don't feel to feel shame for using this exploit but I will use it if the "distinguished gentlemen" (and ladies) of Apolyton see fit to.

It's certainly good info to know...

	25-11-2003 01:23									#66
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I don't know.
I do agree that the production exploits are exploits. You are getting things counted twice that should only count once. Like the GPT bug. It's a bug.

This one though, seems... less of a bug.
My scientists just finished this great project and want to know what to look into next. I get on the diplo-phone and see what this new project can buy me from my neighbors before wasting any money researching stuff that I can buy.

I do that every time I finish a tech.
It's just that this particular tech is also a mini-ToE wonder. I wouldn't really do anything any differently than I would when finishing any other tech or building the ToE, other than being extremely careful that I've finished my decisionmaking before exiting the management screens, just like the ToE wonder.

You could do almost the same thing on the turn before completing research, without the added bargaining power of philosophy.

And it's not like you are getting something for nothing like the production bugs or the gpt bug.

I'm not rationalizing here, I just don't see this in the same class as the double production thing, and have of the other bugs mentioned I never even heard of.

I guess what I'm really wondering is if trading while in that little window betweeen finishing Philo and receiving the freebie would be verboten in an AU game or a CFC game. I generally play by those types of rules normally and don't exploit, just wondering if this is like adjusting the research slider on the last turn of research or like the double production thingy.

	25-11-2003 01:51									#67
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I will abide by any AU or popular consensus ruling of course, but the historic argument against it, the philosophic argument you might say, is that philosophy, in real life, yields unexpected gains. Philosophy - intense thought - leads inexorably to one conclusion, in theory, not to a conclusion of choice per se.

In fact, I think it would be very appropriate for the computer to pick the tech based on each Civ. But of course, that's not an option.

That would be my argument against using the pop-up screens... but frankly, I hope this is NOT considered an exploit, for as a gameplayer, I'd like to put this to use, and my gratitude is to you, Ducki, for pointing it out: I would've never thought of it.

	25-11-2003 01:59									#68
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Philosophy should immediately provide a random available tech.

	25-11-2003 02:42									#69
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I agree that it _should_, Dom, but I think the game engine needs the 'tick' provided by the closing of the popup. I could be wrong - is that moddable?
I like the control, but agree that is should be a surprise, though I think that Level1 (and maybe level2) techs are to low-level to fit - I mean, really, can you imagine the sudden insight provided by philosophical thought that would be required to suddenly cause a civilization to actually start... riding on the backs of horses?!?
Seriously, though, I agree on immediate and random, but is it moddable or are we stuck with it?

	25-11-2003 02:48									#70
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Sorry to post twice so quickly, but what if, instead of the tech giving the free tech, a mini-wonder gave it?
Philo can enable the building of, I don't know, The Forum, which could be cheap enough that even a poorly developed civ that gets to Philo first can most likely build The Forum in one turn, and the Forum can give the free tech at random.
Would that work? Or is that too convoluted?

	25-11-2003 02:58									#71
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I could see that. Get rid of the whole 3 happy citizens thing for the MoM, and have it grant a tech instead, just like ToE (keep the Tourist attraction bit). Or, maybe just tag the free tech to this wonder.

It's a valuable idea. But I like the free tech almost as much. I almost wish that you got a free tech from printing press as well...

	25-11-2003 03:16									#72
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Personally, I think it would be better if the ability to trade before getting your free tech would be considered an improper exploit, at least once the GPT bug gets fixed. The ability to get a free tech is powerful enough already without trading it to get something else in order to get a more expensive tech for free (which, after all, is the only time trading would be advantageous).

The GPT bug makes things more complicated. Normally, one option would be to buy a tech for GPT right before researching Philosophy and hope you can get the GPT back selling Philosophy and/or the free tech that comes with it to your customer. But with the GPT bug interfering with that kind of wheeling and dealing, trading Philosophy before researching the next tech might be considered a reasonable workaround.

By the way, I tried researching CoL before Philosophy in my first Demigod game, something I woudln't have done without the free settler I got from a hut popped when my capital expanded (and my starting area was good, albeit not fantastic). I missed my attempt, possibly by one turn (depending on how the other continent's research speed compared). I was playing the Dutch this time around.

I don't like the "random tech" idea. If a player hasn't done much trading to the AIs, he might get stuck with something cheap like Mysticism or Warrior Code. And in general, it would make the game less a matter of strategy and more a matter of luck than if the player can choose. Disallowing government techs would deal with the the one potential use of the rule that I view as potentially genuinely overpowering: not only are the government techs more expensive even than Construction, but the ability to change governments earlier can provide indirect benefits in the form of additional wealth, food, and production. In contrast, getting Currency or Construction earlier makes less of a difference because cities are probably too busy to build aqueducts or marketplaces for a while even if they could.

Nathan

	25-11-2003 03:23									#73
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Hmmm, I don't know. I think if a player is lucky or clever enough to have the government required techs in place and still get Philosophy first, he/she should be rewarded with the government tech. CoL is relatively expensive, and so is Polytheism - if you get those, and still get Philosophy first, you're either an expanionist on a winning streak, or doing a very good job (in my admittedly amateurish book) trading and researching, and should be rewarded with that early government.

But I can see the validity of your point - it would indeed give the player an incredible advantage.

	25-11-2003 05:10									#74
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Express Path to Republic in C3C Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Dominae What you're not considering is that it's not you versus a particular AI, it's you versus all the AIs. Giving yourself a better start makes the whole game easier. Restarts only provide advantages. Your point only makes sense in a MP or PBEM environment.

Of course it makes the whole game easier. Why else would people do it?

But I have yet to hear of a player being beaten by "all the AIs." The winner is always one particular civ, and the AIs with the strongest starting positions have an inside track toward being that civ.

Ultimately, it comes down to what kind of challenge a player wants. A player who wants a challenging game relative to the difficulty level should restart until he gets a bad start. A player who wants an easy game relative to the difficulty level should restart until he gets a good one. And a player who doesn't care one way or the other should settle for whatever start he happens to get. It really is that simple, at least as far as I'm concerned.

quote: Consequently, saying that some things are "too easy" or "too powerful" is often a direct reflection of the quality of your start, and not actually something in the game mechanics. On average, it is in fact a lot tougher to play the Philosophy game (on Emperor) than you make it out to be.

My point has always been about how powerful the trick is when it can be made to work, not that it is something that should be tried on a regular basis without regard to the starting position (especially on Emperor). I tried to make it clear that I was using an uber-REX civ on maps that worked in its favor. Frankly, I don't have enough data points to know exactly how easy or difficult the trick is in general.

On the other hand, I pulled it off in my first C3C game in spite of taking an even longer detour than just researching Code of Laws first, and in spite of having a starting position that can hardly be considered spectacular. I was playing a Continents map and started on a none-too-huge island all by my lonesome with a single luxury six tiles from my capital. I researched Map Making before Code of Laws. (I forgot about Map Making; I was thinking I'd researched Literature, but I may have misremembered which tech I detoured through.) So at least depending on who the competition is and what kinds of starts they have, it doesn't exactly take the world's best starting position to pull the trick off either. I'm attaching a map of the island I started on, but keep in mind that I've probably cleared just a little bit of forest by this point (1625 BC).

(Actually, starting on an island by myself may have helped. Since I couldn't trade to the AIs, I couldn't give them a research boost to help them compete with me more effectively.)

Also note that while the Mayas are the best REXers in the game (at least given a river to work with), they do not start with Alphabet. So I had that little bit of extra work to do on my way to Philosophy as well.

Nathan

	25-11-2003 05:40									#75
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Express Path to Republic in C3C Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay But I have yet to hear of a player being beaten by "all the AIs." The winner is always one particular civ, and the AIs with the strongest starting positions have an inside track toward being that civ.

The game AI is designed in such a way that it tries to prevent you from winning, instead of trying to win itself. That's why the AI is so militant, and yet is almost incapable of achieving a Domination victory. With this in mind, I think you can see why I consider it "me versus the AIs". The AIs just happen not to be cooperating all the time. The quality of my start (especially as an Agricultural civ) is far more important to how the game plays out, because I'm better than the AI at exploiting the available land. A few games watching the AI in Debug mode really demonstrates how the AI sometimes screws up awesome starting locations.

Other than this, I think we agree.

The screenshot you posted I would classify as an "Average" Agricultural start. Nothing overly obscene about it.


Dominae

	25-11-2003 06:36									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae The screenshot you posted I would classify as an "Average" Agricultural start. Nothing overly obscene about it.

That's really my point: my goal in restarting was not to get an obscenely good starting position. The idea of getting an obscenely good starting position certainly wouldn't have bothered me, but all I really insisted on was a bit of river and at least something else useful (even if just a couple grasslands with shield).

When I want to really push the limits of how much power I can get, I'm willing to restart dozens of times in pursuit of an obscenely good starting position. And I won't apologize for doing it, because I view Ultimate Power games as a perfectly legitimate specialized genre. But that's not what I was doing here.

	25-11-2003 21:19									#77
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Heh, my current game has a very similar island start. The biggest difference is my capitol location was easily capable of +5 food/turn (2 grassland cows) and produces a LOT of shields, making it a monster wonder city. My island is a little bit larger, has a lot more mountians/hills/plains, and a bit more tundra. Now it sounds totally different But the similarities strike me: island start, 1 river, 1 luxury type.

I got some luck that turned what would have been a good game into a great one. I got a settler from a hut, and I was able to make contact with 3 civs via my 1 curragh. The result was a tech lead (and several SGLs over the course of the game - 3 IIRC) and wonder mania. Believe it or not, I cannot recall ever winning a game of CivIII via the 20k culture in 1 city option. This time I'm gonna do it. In 1295AD, Salamanca is just shy of 8k culture, producing 81 per turn, which will increase to 85/turn upon completion of Univ Suff in 2 turns. It contains the Pyramids, the Great Library (SGL rushed), the Sistine, Smith, Copernicus, Newton (SGL rushed), Shakespeares, and the Heroic Epic. Mmmmm, wonders.

The Statue of Zeus can turn an AI into a KAI, yeesh! Persia built it and if I hadn't hit them when I did would have easily finshed off the conquest of their continent. They destroyed Arabia with sickening speed, and decided to pick on the Maya just as my invasion fleet sailed. Of course my sole motivation in crushing the #1 AI civ and taking 2 luxury sources was the defense of the noble Maya. It hurt, though. And with my small home continent, replenishing my forces isn't all that easy.

-Arrian

	26-11-2003 06:26									#78
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I personally have found this thread very confusing...

I prolly won;t understand it till I discover Philosophy!

	26-11-2003 12:24									#79
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The only tech I was first to in my current Demi was Philosophy and I took Lit. I was able to get the GL and I needed it bad as I was at least 4 techs down.
I am all the way into the start of the Industrial age and I am finally near parity in tech (down 1 ).

So how are you finding Demi so far Theseus. I am having to jam 30% to lux almost the whole time, even when I can import a 4th luxs. Still a few cities are fussing.