21-11-2003 20:41									#1
	Raving. (but polite) Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Ok so this is a raving thread. Propably because I havent slept yesterday and because I'm pissed!

I see that at Poly it's business as usual.

Next door at Constantinople/Istanbul, buildings were blown up and people died and got injured for life.

The agloamericans say there's going to be more.

The City is impossible to guard in its entirety, for many reasons.

The only thing that can be done is to steel guard all the "western interests" sites. That means embassies and whatever else can be deemed and possible to protect. From banks to restaurants.

I can't bare thinking, that all this would have been avoided if the agloamericans, ignoring international law, and the wishes of the international community didnt attack iraq and plunged a region in turmoil.

The Turks did whatever they could for that not to happen. They had their one reasons of course, to avoid a kurdish riot, but also not to have their neighboor attacked.

Yet despite everything that they have done, the agloamericans invaded. They are now being the targets of fighters in Iraq.

But Turkey did everything not to help that crime, for whatever reasons, that's not important.

Yet it payed the price in the end for the decision of others.

How can one not explode with the thought that the agloamericans are the biggest threat this planet faces?

A religious fanatic is leading the US. He has no grasp of the intricate sociopolitical fabric that ties that region together. I will not say anything more about him, its pointless.

Then you have the brits. They are willing to sell their soul to satan if that means they'll have more of a say in international affairs? (or so they think?).

OK, not all the brits, but many and certaintly blair.

I do not put blame on italy or spain or poland... heh, forget about that.

And I'm coming back to Turkey. For how long must we stand being observers of our own massacre? When will the world react?
And where is Europe? Only denying and not participating?

Don't worry Greece is under no attack, it has the best relations with arabs for the last 30 years at least, we and they are our allies. I'm not saying this raving for myself or the people I know. Of course though, when a neighboor suffers, it is much closer to home.

Still, I'm saying that for a neighboor country which has been veritably dragged down the pits of terrorism while seeing it coming all the way and being unable to do anything despite doing everything it could.

There's a madman on the wheel, a feeble nation follows him for petty political interests and europe sits idle gazing at its bellybutton.

Some world.

That's it.

	21-11-2003 20:45									#2
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you care about them after cyprus? good man.

	21-11-2003 20:46									#3
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So does this mean that you are going to join the undergound resistance?

	21-11-2003 20:48									#4
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You should have taken the blue pill

	21-11-2003 20:50									#5
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Exactly why are the UK feeble.

I don't think France are feeble, they disagree with the US and UK but that does not make them feeble.

Were UK, Germany et al feeble in forming an alliance to guard europe aginst the USSR.

What would your solution be to dealing with Osama and others like him.

	21-11-2003 22:07									#6
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quote: Don't worry Greece is under no attack, it has the best relations with arabs for the last 30 years at least, we and they are our allies

Yes, your capital was one of the easiest places to capture a passanger airplane. Good days.

quote: A religious fanatic is leading the US.

Wait... and who's leading your "allies" ?


...

...

...

Wait a second, I don't care, since you don't really think the way you just posted in this thread. This is just another troll!

	21-11-2003 22:09									#7
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Why do you say that? I've seen enough of his posts to know this is what he thinks and it's certainly not a unique view. There are people in England who think like that let alone in other European countries.

	21-11-2003 22:13									#8
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Idol hands don't even make for the devil's work, the also allow the devil himself to work.

The US was hit hard with terrorism, and it still continues today. Them arseholes have given fear not only to us but to the rest of the world. They don't just hate America, they hate Western civilization and anyone who works with western civilizations (i.e. Turkey).

Yes, it is sad to see people die. Yet, to blame America for these acts is really messed up, IMO.

When the US was attacked and decalred war on terror we said that it has to be world effort, and that you would either be with us or without us. Turkey chose to be with us, mainly because they really hate the Kurds, but they picked their side, and this how the other side choses to fight. They are cowards.

Do not blame us for flushing out our enemies, blame the rest of the world who would rather sit on their hands and complain that the US has done nothing to help them lately.

It really is a "damned if you damned if you don't" world for the US...

	21-11-2003 22:16									#9
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quote: I can't bare thinking, that all this would have been avoided if the agloamericans, ignoring international law, and the wishes of the international community didnt attack iraq and plunged a region in turmoil.

Are they responsible for the attack? No. You ought to condemn the terrorists for their actions. Not all the Muslims who have been impacted by the War in Iraq strive to bomb innocent people. Just because your enemy happens to be the Great Satan does not mean that you ought to strive to unseat his throne.

	21-11-2003 22:17									#10
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Why do you say that? I've seen enough of his posts to know this is what he thinks and it's certainly not a unique view. There are people in England who think like that let alone in other European countries.

If you can catch him in serious mood, he'll say something different. It's rather rare, though.

	21-11-2003 22:28									#11
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I liked those posts Azazel




I am drunk

	21-11-2003 23:37									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Japher They are cowards.

They are not cowards. We may think they are evil, despicable, vile, murderous, scum, but one thing they aren't is cowardly. Cowards run from danger, they don't volunteer to die.

	21-11-2003 23:56									#13
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They are not cowards. We may think they are evil, despicable, vile, murderous, scum, but one thing they aren't is cowardly. Cowards run from danger, they don't volunteer to die.

Is suicide ever cowardly? I certainly think that in the case of severe depression, choosing to live can be the harder and braver course.

Not suggesting that the Jihadis suffer from depression - but given the choice of painstakingly building up their society, or attempting to reach paradise by murdering innocent women and children, I think a strong case can be made that the latter is indeed the "coward's way out" Theres more to courage than physical courage.

	21-11-2003 23:59									#14
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So Turkey doesnt help or support the invasion of Iraq, and Turkey is attacked, and this somehow shows that the attack is due to the invasion of Iraq? Wouldnt it be more logical to say that Al Qaeeda is motivated in its choice of targets by something OTHER than support for the UK and US wrt Iraq? Of course Paktis sometime ago said that only the US, UK, and Israel had to worry about AQ terrorism, so I guess he feels a need to show he was right.

	22-11-2003 00:05									#15
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from Salaam Pax,. the Iraqi blogger

'G in Baghdad wouldn't write on his blog but he just sent me a wickedly funny email, sorry G this is what happens when you have blogger friends. Here is what he wrote:
tell your friends in London that G in Baghdad would have appreciated them much more if they had demonstrated against the atrocities of saddam.
And if you could ask them when will be the next demonstration to support the people of north Korea, the democratic republic of Congo and Iran?'

	22-11-2003 14:09									#16
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for shame

	22-11-2003 14:50									#17
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this wouldn't have happened, if you weren't illegally voting for Gore during the last election. Just because you don't live in the U.s. doesn't mean you can't vote for U.S. president.

	22-11-2003 14:53									#18
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I can't help but think that the U.S. may be responsible for these attacks . indirectly of course.

This war on terror isn't going so well

I'm sorry my nation isn't good enough for you.

	22-11-2003 15:28									#19
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Certainly the Bush administration has much to be criticised, on a variety of issues ranging from how the decision to invade Iraq was taken in the first place to the way current occupation of Iraq is run, but just for the sake of clarity of argument, let's think of another question: Why did they do the attacks of 9/11 in the first place?

A possible answer is because they have decided to take on the US much before than W. Bush was sworn in office...It follows from here that no matter how drastic a change of foreign policy for the Middle East took place on behalf of the US in the 90s, the AQ had already have ascertained that the US is the great satan, and thus would not think of not "going ahead" with 9/11...

Here you have the option of blaming the US for its foreign policy for the past 50 years in the Middle East, but then it would be too much to expect from any country let alone the US to make foreign policy with a view to not touching the raw nerve of fundamentalists in the region...

The invasions of Aghanistan and Iraq and the subsequent developments only gave the AQ direction about what to do next...Where to place the next bomb ...Of course, it really doesnt matter for all those who lost their lives in all terrorist attacks

	22-11-2003 15:35									#20
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Until 64', the US wasn't a friend of Israel. it tried to pander to arab interests.

	22-11-2003 16:31									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Don't worry Greece is under no attack, it has the best relations with arabs for the last 30 years at least, we and they are our allies Yes, your capital was one of the easiest places to capture a passanger airplane. Good days. quote: A religious fanatic is leading the US. Wait... and who's leading your "allies" ? ... ... ... Wait a second, I don't care, since you don't really think the way you just posted in this thread. This is just another troll!

See, not only is Az too direct but he's too jingoistic and religious to seperate himself from the Israeli identity, which in turn makes his trolls a fezfest

Anyway, the US is at falt yes, however the terrorists are also at fault as well

	22-11-2003 16:38									#22
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quote: See, not only is Az too direct but he's too jingoistic and religious to seperate himself from the Israeli identity, which in turn makes his trolls a fezfest

yep, that's me, religious. BUSTED.



Go and whine at pictures of girls in bikinis, "liberal".

	22-11-2003 17:19									#23
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The idea that somehow Al Quida wouldn't have done this kind of thing if the US/UK hadn't gone against International bodies such as the UN is hillarious ..

I can see Bin-Laden, seething with anger at how the UN was swept aside.

Of course.. he waited for the UN resolution to be passed allowing him to hit the trade centre ...

These are evil terrorists we are talking about, although I can accept that the fact that the US/UK didn't get UN approval has made many people feel annoyed with them, this is not the reason why Al Quida are doing what they are doing. They don't care for the UN, the French or the Germans or even the Greeks .. they'd just as happily blow you up as well if you stand in their way.

So what should we do, run .. hide .. not criticise them, not attack back ??

To stand still in my opinion, is to do more evil, than to attack .. and I know that many here will not agree with that sentiment .. and thats down to your own personal moral judgement (respected) ..

I just don't see any other alternative.

	23-11-2003 11:44									#24
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but you have to admit, that since the U.S. invaded iraq the Al Queda attacks have gone up.

	23-11-2003 11:50									#25
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I just hope that you're able to judge Americans by their own individual characteristics, rather than the ones of those who 'lead' us.

	23-11-2003 12:04									#26
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quote: I can't bare thinking, that all this would have been avoided if the agloamericans, ignoring international law, and the wishes of the international community didnt attack iraq and plunged a region in turmoil.

And what about all of those Islamic terrorist attacks which predate Iraq and Afghanistan? What we are dealing with a brutal and violent people who are looking for any justification to be brutal and violent.

	23-11-2003 12:06									#27
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quote: but you have to admit, that since the U.S. invaded iraq the Al Queda attacks have gone up.

No. We just notice them more now. Before, who really gave a damn?

	23-11-2003 12:15									#28
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BTW Al Qaeda has sponsored terrorist attacks in Afghanistan, China (the western muslim part of china), Pakistan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Tunis, Morocco, Egypt, Kenya, Tanzania, Yemen, Indonesia, and the US. Plus they tried, but were stopped, in the UK, Italy, France, and Spain (not to mention in the US again).

Most of the countries on that list didn't support the Iraq invasion yet Arab terror organizations still targeted them. Like the Nazis before them the modern Arab facist cannot be appeased and most be confronted directly.

	23-11-2003 12:19									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel for shame

I think most people already knew that most of the anti-Semetic hate crimes occuring in Europe were commited by muslims and Arab immigrants. It's nice to have an official EU government report come to that conclusion though.

	23-11-2003 12:49									#30
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I think the Russian foreign minister said it best in an interview I heard. I'm doing this from memory, but he complained about George Bush's Iraq policy. He stated that after the World Trade Center attacks, the US had the world on our side. He resented Bush screwing that up, instead polarizing the world with the unilateralism with Iraq and souring all the good will. With the good will he stated that the US could have forged an anti-terror coalition, but without it the US had blown a good chance. The Russians have their own problems with asymetric warface targeting civilians (which of course the Russian leadership have contributed to, but the dead civilians were never asked for there input).

The problem here in the US is that most people from Parliamentary Democracies don't really understand the structure of a REPRESENTATIVE Republic. We have a President who won the election while losing the popular vote. We have computer-based gerrymandered election districts designed to disenfanchise voters of the other party (both sides do this). Our President is largely unaccountable for a four year period, no matter what, due to the design of our impeachment system and the two party system, unless what he does is highly egregious. Plus in most elections not even half of the adults who could be registered voters vote (non-Presedential year elections) and many of those that do vote never bother to actually look up the record of the candidate.

So it is not really the AngloAmericans who invaded Irag, but the Bush adminstration, plus the Blair governement. In both countries, especially if you make certain the people of the facts (for the US, the Brits are better informed it seems), they are opposed to war. The problem in America is that many people are too lazy to get there facts anyplace but the Fox news channel (distorted right-wing news plus propoganda and opinion masquerading as news), and that plus the lack of voter turn-out is what Americans can be blamed for. Our inaction foisted the Bush administration on the world. I at least can say I voted against the sod, and was ready to try to keep him out of office by voting in my state primary (how parties select their candidates, for non-US readers), but by then it was too late. I'm also a proud gun-owning non-liberal, but that doesn't mean I have to like the Bush adminstration, and accept his vision of neo-conservatism.

Speaking of which, reference Azazel and Comrade Tassadar, please remember there are many religious Jews out there who find the Zionist comments Azazel make repugnant, and his identification of "religious" in an attempt to imply that excuses his trolls as an affront to Judeism (sort of like what George Bush and the religious right try to do in the US with "Christian"). My wife, who used to teach children at the local synagogue (having a baby put a cramp at that, but our little girl goes with mom to services on Saturday) , is one of those who finds Zionism horrible, and could quote how the intolerance shown by Zionists is very anti-Talmudic, I can't because I'm a New Testament type . She finds the treatment of Palestinians by Israel (google "water rights" "west bank" and go to the non-Arab sites if you want to see what I mean) or the seizure of Bedouin land in the Negev shameful. That doesn't mean she thinks the surrounding Arab governments are nice, she finds most of them unpleasant, also. One, however, does not excuse the other, and she refuses to buy into the "us" or "them" mentality. I just resent the fact that US administations support of Israel while not making them accountable for the Geneva convention reference civilians has helped make the US a target. Al Quaeda would have attacked someone else if the US hadn't meddled in the Mideast. Then it would be their problem.