22-11-2003 04:11									#1
	Statue of Zeus Suffering from ads?

It is known that AI does not value Ivory properly before SoZ is built. Instead of putting this code in why not change Ivory to Horses as requirement?

(1) AI procedure for trading stratigic resource already counts buildings that enable to be build bringing the price up. However, I am not sure how a wonder will be calculated: once or per every city. Latter could be very expensive
(2) Acnient cavalry is a horse riding unit. Is not it? I do not have conquest yet, but I doubt that they are riding ivory, i.e. elephant tusks.
(3) Horses are more "fairly" distributed than Ivory: luxury resources of the same type tend to cluster unlike stratigic ones.

	22-11-2003 04:53									#2
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My guess is that they want it to be unavailable to most civs.

	22-11-2003 05:55									#3
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i rather like the statue of zeus not requiring horses - it allows a horse deprived player to build a cavalry force without excessive wheeling and dealing.

i've only *just* obtained some horses via trade, and i'm in the late late late middle ages now. i'm actually doing what i can to avoid researching metallurgy for as long as possible atm. must have more ancient cavalry!

	22-11-2003 07:20									#4
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they don't upgrade. they'll be useless soon enough.

	22-11-2003 07:22									#5
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A free walking stockpile of shields is useless?

	22-11-2003 07:26									#6
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I like them even late in the game to move into recently capture towns and sit there. This frees units to move on to better task and cost me nothing.

	22-11-2003 08:37									#7
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quote: Originally posted by pauli i rather like the statue of zeus not requiring horses - it allows a horse deprived player to build a cavalry force without excessive wheeling and dealing. i've only *just* obtained some horses via trade, and i'm in the late late late middle ages now. i'm actually doing what i can to avoid researching metallurgy for as long as possible atm. must have more ancient cavalry!

This is hard to judge. a double resource requirement would make it harder for the anal retentive human player to grab zeus for themselve since they usually will not know if they have horses until at least turn 30 to 50.

Also, the new resource distribution in C3C tends to balance out Zeus' increadible power by potentially having the human trade away key techs for horses or perhaps making it impossible to build it.

	22-11-2003 09:37									#8
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Hate to break it to you guys, but the SoZ is no more powerful than Pyramids or the Temple of Artemis or the new Great Wall, and they all have no resource requirement. Securing a powerful Wonder should be a race as to which civ can acquire the most Shields (and the necessary tech), not which is lucky enough to start next to Ivory.

When you start next to Ivory, there is simply no decision whether or not you want the Statue of Zeus. It's more a matter of where and when (and that's a boring boring decision). What could potentially be an interesting Wonder in every game is now only interesting in those games the map generator bestows Ivory upon your starting location (less than once every eight games). Those of you who do not think this is such a big deal have surely reloaded until you've found that Ivory start just so that you could build the SoZ. Are you prepared to do that every game?


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 22-11-2003 at 09:42

	22-11-2003 10:00									#9
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I don't like reloading my starts. Call me a sick-o, but I think it adds a lot to Civ to play from different challenging starting positions. If you have a real awful position, the pain is usually only short-lived anyways. I'm content to build some other powerful wonder if I don't have ivory. I guess the only difference is that if you do have ivory in your starting location you are basically guaranteed an ancient era wonder whereas this wouldn't always be the case.

-donZappo

	22-11-2003 10:07									#10
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Might sound like a silly solution, but why not make ivory depleatable? Now you have it ( yeay )..., now you don't ( auch ), or vice versa of course
-

quote: This frees units to move on to better task and cost me nothing.

Are you sure these units are free? As in no upkeep??? Better check again

	22-11-2003 11:59									#11
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No I have not check to see if there is any maint on them. I was referring to the fact that I did not spend any shields or time to get them and I could build something else in that city.

	22-11-2003 12:46									#12
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And since you can build them relatively early, there are the best mobile unit for quite sometime.

Dominae, RE: Zeus' power. I've seen a debug game where one AI which is behind in score wipe off another AI off the continent (2 AI evenly sharing a continent on a tiny map) with Zeus' cavalry. It's powerful in the sense that it allows for quick and powerful expansion. Certainly, pyramids, sun tzu are powerful too, but their effect on your military is indirect so the power is not felt.

Given the human advantage when it comes to strategy, warfare, and a variety of unit management issues, Zeus is probably more powerful than Pyramids or Sun Tzu when it is in effect. Zeus is like a bolt of lighting whereas the other wonders tend to accumulate benefits.

	22-11-2003 13:01									#13
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I like the possibility of one of the AI getting it and being a better oppo now or later. Screw the idea of restarting til I get ivory myself.

	22-11-2003 13:23									#14
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I just started a standard map random game where I'm playing the Hittites versus all the other Conquest civs. Portugal has built the Statue and I was hoping for horses so I could roll with some 3-man chariots but there are no horses anywhere nearby. Fortunately I have iron and have settled a river with flood plains. Those can pump out the food (esp with the 2 wheat there)!

The Incas and Portugal have been at war with me for quite awhile but I've finally built the Temple of Artemis. I want to see how my borders expand.

It also seems the AI doesn't go for Literature. Sure they want to trade for it but I don't want them to have it. I'm in the tech lead and have a SGL saved for the Knights Templar. If someone builds the Great Library I'll just take it.

While the Statue certainly would be considered heavily if I had ivory at game start that doesn't mean it should always be built. It would depend on your terrain and situation. Flexibility is key in Civ and if you always go for the Statue if you've got ivory then you are not looking at the whole picture you might need to win the game.

While I'm looking forward to building the Knights Tempar and rolling out the knights if something happens and I have to abandon it so be it. There's always another wonder I can rush. Since you can have more than 1 SGL it isn't as huge a concern to use them right away like it was in PTW.

	22-11-2003 14:10									#15
	Re: Statue of Zeus Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by pvzh It is known that AI does not value Ivory properly before SoZ is built. Instead of putting this code in why not change Ivory to Horses as requirement? (1) AI procedure for trading stratigic resource already counts buildings that enable to be build bringing the price up. However, I am not sure how a wonder will be calculated: once or per every city. Latter could be very expensive (2) Acnient cavalry is a horse riding unit. Is not it? I do not have conquest yet, but I doubt that they are riding ivory, i.e. elephant tusks. (3) Horses are more "fairly" distributed than Ivory: luxury resources of the same type tend to cluster unlike stratigic ones.

The reason for ivory is the actual statue was made out of it. The reason it does not require horses is the statue draws the best ancient horsemen who pledge their skills to the glory of Zeus, and whoever owns the statue.

	22-11-2003 18:31									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Hate to break it to you guys, but the SoZ is no more powerful than Pyramids or the Temple of Artemis or the new Great Wall, and they all have no resource requirement. Securing a powerful Wonder should be a race as to which civ can acquire the most Shields (and the necessary tech), not which is lucky enough to start next to Ivory. When you start next to Ivory, there is simply no decision whether or not you want the Statue of Zeus. It's more a matter of where and when (and that's a boring boring decision). What could potentially be an interesting Wonder in every game is now only interesting in those games the map generator bestows Ivory upon your starting location (less than once every eight games). Those of you who do not think this is such a big deal have surely reloaded until you've found that Ivory start just so that you could build the SoZ. Are you prepared to do that every game? Dominae

actually, in my current game i a: forgot that i'd need ivory for the statue, and b: coincidentally spotted the nearest luxury i knew of - ivory - about 30 squares away right next to the mongols. luckily, i managed to capture one before they got them all. there were horses not far away, but they were in mongol territory before i could get them (and that's kinda far from home to pick a fight!).

i'm finding the need for ivory to be something of a goad to builders - you usually *have to* expand to get some now.

there is an opportunity for mod writers now, though - either a: make zeus a small wonder with no ivory req, or b: make a series of wonders that each require a specific luxury resource and each provide a specific oddball unit. either one would really spice things up.

	22-11-2003 18:51									#17
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quote: Originally posted by pauli there is an opportunity for mod writers now, though - either a: make zeus a small wonder with no ivory req, or b: make a series of wonders that each require a specific luxury resource and each provide a specific oddball unit. either one would really spice things up.

I like the latter option better. I am in the camp of "Screw fairness! Give me a little more variety."

	22-11-2003 18:58									#18
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quote: Originally posted by pauli there is an opportunity for mod writers now, though - either a: make zeus a small wonder with no ivory req, or b: make a series of wonders that each require a specific luxury resource and each provide a specific oddball unit. either one would really spice things up.

You forgot c: make Zeus require no resources to build, just like every other Great Wonder.


Dominae

	23-11-2003 01:26									#19
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I am not sure how to rate the great wonders, as all can be very useful and you can win without any individual one.
Having said that, I can say it is much easier to win with Zeus than with the Great Wall.

Being able to cut back on troop builds alone is a huge boost. Ordinarily the wonder building city will have to make some troops, now it does not. It will still generate an AC at the same rate it would have build a horseman (more or less) and still be free to do something else.

How this compares to the free granary, I am not sure, but I am only an occasional builder of the Pyramid anyway.

I can only say that if you offer me a free ancient wonder, I am taking Zeus. Yes, I do not get it all that much and can still win, but it is so much more fun. Is the GW fun?

	23-11-2003 02:39									#20
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I heard that the AI spends too many cities on wonders in the ancient age. Dropping the ivory requirement from the Statue of Zeus would make this worse.

In answer to 1), if it works like it did in PTW, the cost of ivory will go up for every 5 cities for the Statue until it's been built. That sounds sensible as I've heard reports of players buying ivory just for it.

	23-11-2003 10:57									#21
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Yes I have made a deal to get ivory for that purpose.
I have not looked at it, but I suspect that having so many wonders now in the ancient age is a problem for the AI. Why wouldn't it be, it is a problem for me. We at least have enough sense to pick and choose, but since the gov wants to start any wonder it knows about, I would not be surprised to find out the AI does have too many cities working on them. Cities that have no shot at completetion.

	23-11-2003 17:18									#22
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Just my comments on this:

Current C3C game, Monarch, as the Byzantines.

I found that my continent had 4 others on it (Greece, Carthage, Egypt, nearest neighbour was Rome), but, now I have explored (and conquered ) it completely, I have found there is a single Horse resource and only two Iron. The other continent (3 civs) has the other 8 Horse and 7 Iron. Without the Temple I would not have had ANY mounted units - in fact I did not see any other civ with a Mounted or Iron unit throughout my little Napoleon scenario-style conquest.

Luckily, the continent has 5 lux, 4 of which were really close - including Ivory, so I got Zeus as my only Ancient Wonder. I just wanted to stress how incredibly useful this Wonder is, as it gave me the speed of Horses where there were none before, and they came in far far more useful in killing NMs and Hoplites than Crusaders (I also got the Knights Templar ). Whereas in PtW I am used to there being more than enough Horses at least around for everyone, this was a godsend (literally, in the game!). Crusaders were a bit slow on a large map, but in an army they waded through city defenses with barely a scratch to show afterwards.

I would consider Zeus and the Ancient Cavalry as nothing spectacular if you can get Horse units anyway, but if you have no Horses they really make the difference, and you should use them them to GET Horses for the next age.

	23-11-2003 17:18									#23
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Having now had both Statue of Zeus and Knights Templar (in different games) I think they add something to the game. SoZ is potentially helpful to a smaller civ that just happens to have the resource to build it whilst the benefit to a larger civ that can build a powerful military anyway is proportionately less.

My current game has a long continent with the Chinese in the north (last in tech), then the Vikings with SoZ, then Carthage then me playing as the Dutch. I eliminated the Ottomans. Despite having SoZ the Vikings have got nowhere against the others and are possibly the weakest civ on the continent so it isn't a gamebreaker by any means.

I got KT and am about to try a Crusader army.

Incidentally the AI is better. The Carths marched past my border city to pillage a luxury rather than try and attack Swiss Mercs fortified behind walls. They only started attacking the Swiss AFTER I finished off a longbowman and triggered my GA with one.