23-11-2003 02:03									#1
	A Tabemono-MAST Alliance: terms? Got spare money?

I need everyone to comment on what terms they might like for a Tabemono-MAST alliance. Tabemono seems to agree that an alliance between us could be quite profitable and they are going to discuss possible terms within their forum. I told them I'd have us do the same to see what might be possible.

This is all with the caveat that even HAVING an alliance is certainly not agreed to yet by either team, but we'd like to keep discussing it.

So what would people here like for terms?

Remember that part of the reason we'd originally discussed the possibility of an alliance with Tabemono here was because we really don't like the latin wannabes and while we get along with the hippies, it seems that Tabemono doesn't like their negotiating style anymore than we do

	23-11-2003 02:47									#2
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Wenn eine Allianz, dann richtig
Hier ein Beispiel:

quote: § 1 Friedensvertrag 1) Mit sofortiger Wirkung schließen X und Y Frieden 2) Beide Seiten akzeptieren folgenden Grenzverlauf: § 2 Nichtangriffspakt 1) X und Y schließen mit sofortiger Wirkung einen Nichtangriffspakt (NAP). 2) Die Dauer des NAP beläuft sich auf den Zeitraum der in § 3 für die in § 3 festgelegte Allianz zuzüglich weiterer 50 Runden. 3) Der NAP ist von beiden Seiten geheim zu halten. 4) X und Y verhandeln nach Ablauf der in § 3 festgelegten Allianz erneut über den Zeitraum des NAP, wobei die 50 Runden bei beiderseitigen Einvernehmen änderbar sind. 5) Der NAP ist nicht einseitig kündbar. § 3 Allianz 1) X und Y beschließen mit sofortiger Wirkung eine befristete Allianz, welche beide Seiten für die Dauer der Allianz miteinander verbindet. 2) Die Allianz ist bis einschließlich des Jahres XXXX n.C. befristet und wird von dem in § 2 beschlossenen NAP abgelöst. 3) Die Allianz ist von beiden Seiten geheim zu halten. 4) Beide Seiten verpflichten sich für den Rest des Spieles mit niemandem anderes ihre Karten zu tauschen oder sie gar an andere Zivilisationen zu verschenken. Die Karten dürfen nicht an andere Zivilisationen weitergegeben werden, in welcher Form auch immer. 5) Beide Seiten dürfen für den Rest des Spieles mit keiner anderen Zivilisation eine Allianz oder ähnliches eingehen. 6) X und Y berufen je einen Botschafter und Assistenten ein der für die Übermittlung von Daten und Fakten die in § 3 festgelegt sind zuständig ist. 7) Die Allianz ist nicht einseitig kündbar. 8) Sollten keine andere Zivilisationen, vor Ablauf der Allianz, mehr im Spiel sein, so endet die Allianz sofort und es tritt § 2 in Kraft. 9) Die Allianz umfasst folgende Punkte zu denen sich beide Zivilisationen verpflichten: a) Beistandspflicht bei einem unprovozierten Angriff einer anderen Zivilisation b) Kriege dürfen nur begonnen werden, wenn beide Seiten ihr Einverständnis erklärt haben c) Vorbereitung und Durchführung von kriegerischen Aktionen gegenüber anderen Zivilisationen und Barbaren werden von beiden Seiten vorgenommen und miteinander abgestimmt d) Truppenbewegungen von Barbaren und anderer Zivilisationen werden an die andere Seite weitergegeben. e) Diplomatische Verhandlungen mit anderen Zivilisationen bedürfen der Absprache des Alliierten. f) Handel jedweder Art mit anderen Zivilisationen bedürfen der Absprache des Alliierten. g) Beide Seiten verpflichten sich jeder Technologie, welche die andere Seite noch nicht hat, sofort an diese Seite zu schenken. Dieses kann aus taktischen und strategischen Gründen, wenn beide Seiten ihr Einverständnis erklären, auch ausbleiben. h) Die Forschung wird von beiden Seiten abgestimmt. Dieses beinhaltet sowohl die Absprache wer welche Technologie erforscht, als auch das Tempo und wann welche Seite Geld sammelt. i) Um eine optimale Nutzung der Resourcen zu gewährleisten, werden X und Y als eine Zivilisation betrachtet, welche sämtliche Resourcen zur Verfügung stehen. Die Aufteilung der Resourcen wird im Sinne der Allianz von beiden Seiten abgestimmt. j) Sollte eine Seite über ein Luxusgut oder Resource verfügen, welche die andere Seite nicht verfügt, ist die Seite verpflichtet so schnell als möglich dieses anzuschließen und der anderen Seite zur Verfügung zu stellen. k) Spätestens 5 Runden vor Fertigstellung eines Weltwunders ist die alliierte Seite über dessen Fertigstellung zu informieren. l) Kartentausch ist uneingeschränkt. m) Die Alliierten stimmen ihr Erkunden der Welt untereinander ab. n) Kontakte zu anderen Zivilisationen werden uneingeschränkt an die alliierte Seite weitergegeben. Dieses kann aus taktischen oder strategischen Gründen einvernehmlich unterbleiben. o) Die Alliierten sprechen ihre Siedlungspläne miteinander ab. p) Kulturelle Übernahme einer Stadt zwischen den beiden Seiten muss abgelehnt werden. § 4 Ende der Allianz und des NAP Nach Beendigung der Allianz und des NAP sind bis auf § 3 Absatz 4) und § 3 Absatz 5) alle normalen Regeln wieder hergestellt und alles ist erlaubt.

	24-11-2003 04:07									#3
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I think the most important thing would be that any sort of alliance is secretive.

Also I think the deal for Maths is very nice. Perhaps we could even suggest to Tabe that they only have to pay us 24g. As a sign that we want the friendship to be mutually beneficial.

I spoke to Kloreep in IRC for a little while mainly about LL and SS. They seem to think LL could be planning on stockpiling money for legion upgrades.

	24-11-2003 05:55									#4
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by OPD I spoke to Kloreep in IRC for a little while mainly about LL and SS. They seem to think LL could be planning on stockpiling money for legion upgrades.

Knowing the guys on that team, COUNT ON IT.

We need to prepare for a LL invasion. It's a certainty.

ZargonX is on the Tabemono team, right? If so, remind him that Manya is on the LL Team

Trust me....

We need to ally with Tabemono and go wipe out LL before they wipe out us... with those guys playing Rome, there's really no other option.

	24-11-2003 07:19									#5
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Held another chat with Kloreep, Sharpe, and Rhothaerill of Tabemono this evening.

We both fear LL's 2 settler start combined with who is on the team combined with legionaries quite a bit, it seems. Tabemono believes that an alliance against LL would be a good idea, seeing as it's unlikely with LL's awesome 2-settler start that either of us should have to stand against them alone.

A good bit of discussion over whether Sunshine would be interested in an alliance as well directed toward joint protection against LL or would at least sit out a war with the two of us against LL. We agreed that at least keeping NAPs with Sunshine for now may be the best option.

We discussed that we believe that Sunshine's passifism theme is likely a sham in terms of how they will behave in-game, largely due to who is on that team. BigFree, in particular, really likes playing Greece in MP games using an early hoplite/sword combo to bowl over his nearest neighbor. That said, most of those on that team are people that typically like to wait until the start of the Middle Age or into the early Middle Age to fight their first war.

As for an alliance against LL, we will both try to keep an eye on them and if we believe they have begun building for war, we can alert each other and both start building for war as well. The open question is whether it's worth alerting Sunshine as well.

Since LL will likely be coming at us with Legions, we discussed that having catapults in both of our armies would likely help quite a bit at slowing them down or even in stopping them.


ASIDE (me talking about strategy just to you guys):

It would seem that the forces we'd most need would be a catapult/spearmen combination on a good road network with the ability to bombard them with the cats, then let them attack us while they take additional cat bombardment (and trying to take down our spears). Then mopping up whatever we can with our own archers (because they're cheap) or horsemen.

Since we'd need to outproduce them for the strategy to work, building such cheap units might be a necessity, along with having both Tabemono's army and MAST's army available. I think that building a road between MAST, Tabemono, and the likely front (where at least one of us, likely MAST, has a city for the cultural borders) would be quite helpful. Such a road would allow both of us to come to the others' defense more easily. Of course, we'd also have to defend such a road against any surprise attacks by LL.

Thing is... what would be the likely timing of the LL attack? Could we pre-empt them or is that not really possible? How soon will they move? As soon as their initial core is up (when they start mass-producing warriors for upgrade) or later on, after they've accumulated a rather large force of such warriors for upgrade? How will we be able to tell when they've switched to military production or when they're ready to do their upgrades and to attack?

If we have a way of ascertaining the TIMING of LL's likely attack, we have a better chance of properly prepairing the right combination of forces we will need and the ways to give and receive assistance to possible allies.

As for other things we discussed, there wasn't all that much.

	24-11-2003 17:37									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos It would seem that the forces we'd most need would be a catapult/spearmen combination on a good road network with the ability to bombard them with the cats, then let them attack us while they take additional cat bombardment (and trying to take down our spears). Then mopping up whatever we can with our own archers (because they're cheap) or horsemen. Since we'd need to outproduce them for the strategy to work, building such cheap units might be a necessity, along with having both Tabemono's army and MAST's army available. I think that building a road between MAST, Tabemono, and the likely front (where at least one of us, likely MAST, has a city for the cultural borders) would be quite helpful. Such a road would allow both of us to come to the others' defense more easily. Of course, we'd also have to defend such a road against any surprise attacks by LL. Thing is... what would be the likely timing of the LL attack? Could we pre-empt them or is that not really possible? How soon will they move? As soon as their initial core is up (when they start mass-producing warriors for upgrade) or later on, after they've accumulated a rather large force of such warriors for upgrade? How will we be able to tell when they've switched to military production or when they're ready to do their upgrades and to attack? If we have a way of ascertaining the TIMING of LL's likely attack, we have a better chance of properly prepairing the right combination of forces we will need and the ways to give and receive assistance to possible allies.[/i] As for other things we discussed, there wasn't all that much.

I exchanged a few PM's with Slayer a while back to set up a trade of CoL. I also brought up the possiblity of a NAP and suggested that tech trading would be dependant on a NAP. Slayer said that MasterZen would be in contact concerning that.

I think I can press this further to put us in a good position to know when an attack may come. If they don't agree to a NAP, they might aswell say they're going to attack. If they do agree even to a short term one we can bring up an extention 10 turns before it expires, if they don't agree we again know they are planning to attack.

The way things are they have no option but to attack from the sea. Or at least they'd be very foolish to march through land against us. Spears and cats are indeed the best way to defend against legions but I think a strong navy would also be a very good defence.

I don't think an attack from us on LL would be anything other than futile, attack is hard enough as it is without facing superior units.

	27-11-2003 23:27									#7
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How are things going with the diplomacy then, do we have an alliance with Tabe now?

	28-11-2003 20:14									#8
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Things haven't gone anywhere in the past few days because of the Thanksgiving Holiday in the U.S. I'll probably be back in chat with the Tabemono guys after the weekend.

	28-11-2003 23:50									#9
	Tired of ads?

Ok

Notice we did not violate their territory last turn Makes it easier being a diplomat eh?

Arnie, do you use ICQ anymore? I added you the other day but no response to my authorization request...

	30-11-2003 19:32									#10
	Got spare money?

Tabemono sent me an apology PM for not forwarding us Mathematics this past turn. They promise to do so next turn.