13-01-2004 20:16									#61
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We won't be able to build it IMHO. It will be taken first. Drones and Hive can build quicker, and the CBA is far more valuble. We need better troops if we are to beat Hive/Drones.

As PUT about leapfrogging to MMI, and go for CBA. I propose starting the PEG in a base, and mass crawlering. Try to trade for money, or take out loans, and mass crawler-upgrade. Then build CBA. Go for CDF or CF if we can, but CBA should be the priority. And we could trade weapons techs with PUT now, or do as Imp suggests and once the war is over give them a missile plasma cruiser to engineer

	14-01-2004 02:53									#62
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quote: Maniac: The Hive have propsed (or rather Enigma has) a Doc Loyal and Eco Eng for Adapt Econ and the PEG trade. If buster wants Adapt Econ, then do both trades on the same turn. We then give one tech and one SP to he Hive/Drones, and get 3 in return...

If we can't build the PEG, I agree. Though we should try to keep the Hive to their proposal of giving EcoEng & EnvEcon.
And should we accept Doc:Loy in a deal? IIRC Impaler wanted that as it led to Intellectual Integrity. But now we know that the Hive intends to go for Planetary Economics which means researching IntInt. Shouldn't we wait a little then and ask to trade IntInt, and forget about Doc:Loy for now? I assume we won't use Police State this game, so - if we'd manage to build the CDF - we wouldn't need DocLoy at all and could keep our tech costs a bit lower.


I agree we should start asking PUT about leapfrogging to MMI. The problem is Archaic nor GT has been responding to my latest PMs. I guess it's because of his busted knee, and hope not because he is not interested in cooperation.

	14-01-2004 16:13									#63
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PEACE relations end in a war, with the Hive we haven't traded anything yet despite lots of talk, PUT doesn't respond to my PMs, now buster doesn't even send us a simple message he's not interested in a trade before playing the turn...

Is there something wrong with CyCon diplomacy or do all other factions have an attitude problem?

	14-01-2004 16:51									#64
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PEACE had an attitude problem.
The Hive have had upheaval and have traded lots of information, but have no need of the techs we have (at the time), so it's not diplo failure, it's product failure.
PUT are inactive because of Archaic's accident.
Buster has a way with words (he doesn't like using them) and so is very lax with PMs. He doesn't seem to say much when he does respond either. We also have nothing they want.

CyCon dip is good, our tradable goods are lacking, and some factions are inactive.

	14-01-2004 19:48									#65
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I propose we offer to trade Adaptive Econ for SFF with the Drones. If we are going to be trading it with the Hive we might as well tec whore ourselves ALL over the place and get as much as we can for it. Then they can fight over the Secret Project and possibly become bitter over it. If we can jump to MMI with Uni then the loss of PEG would be worth it.

Also becasue no one else has Progenitor Pych it is completly reasonable to expect we could get the PEG if we didn't trade. Only if somone made an independent deal with PEACE would we be in danger of lossing it and everyone out their should know this, we should get as much as we can for Adaptive Econ.

	14-01-2004 20:29									#66
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I agree with Impaler completely Offer it to the Drones, Adapt Econ for SFF, and ask if they would prefer another tech. Meanwhile try and get the Hive to accept Adapt Econ and PEG for Eco Eng and Env Econ. And try to make sure no-one can steal/trade it with us or PEACE.

	16-01-2004 18:57									#67
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Has this been offered? Adapt Econ for any tech (preferably SFF). If not, can it be offered?

Thanks

	16-01-2004 19:17									#68
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Would we still have the opportunity to build the PEG if we offered AdapEcon now?

	16-01-2004 19:33									#69
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No. But what's worth more, the PEG, or 3 techs? IMHO the three techs by far.

	16-01-2004 23:56									#70
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If the Drones are preparing then they could build practicaly any project the moment they have the tec for it.

Idealy I would like to get PEG for us ofcorse so the idea of trading SFF for Adaptive Econ with the Drones is only very usefull in my opinion if we trade it to BOTH the Drones and the Hive thus getting 2 tecs out of the deal rather then just 1. I consider the Project to be worth a whole tec in of itself (the energy production would in the long run alow us that much faster research anyways).

If we can trade with the Drones in such a way that they cant get the PEG then I would be all for that. If we accept a trade with them in the same year that we throw crawlers at the Project then we will get the project on the following turn because we are before them in turn order even if they also manage to build it on that first turn they have access too it, they will be stuck will an unfinishable project.

	31-01-2004 04:40									#71
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Okay, an informative slip from buster.

I sent this:

quote: Greetings Foremen buster and jtsisyoda, I have a question for the Drones. If former PEACE members asked to join the Drones after their faction is destroyed, would you accept them in your faction? I hope to hear from you soon! Mani Alpha-3 External Affairs Function of the Cybernetic Consciousness

He replied like this, apparently thinking I was a pirate:

quote: buster wrote on 30-01-2004 23:58: sure - besides which I would like to send you a bunch of data (we now have cycon map & could give you info on all their bases) - if you give me an e-.mail addy I will send it. Further we are interested in adaptive econ & progen psych. We have DAP too but as Cycon is tearing you apart I cannot give it to you before they have it (guess it will be about three turns). We can offer you SFF already now though - would a SFF for adaptive econ trade be in your interest? As soon as Cycon gets DAP we will then do a DAP for progen psych trade. And just to make sure it is clear you (and other peace members) will be welcome regardless of your position on the trades. I just wanted to bring up the subject now when we were in comm anyway. regards buster

Should I send back something like that?

quote: Hi buster, Great to hear we can find sanctuary with the Drones! As it indeed seems likely we won't last much longer it is very much appreciated. As for the data, you can send it to peter_steenbeke@hotmail.com - it will certainly help us in resisting against the CyCon for a while longer. And regarding DAP/SFF, I'll have to check with the other Captains before I can give an official promise, but I'm sure it will be accepted. Greetings, Maniac

If he already realized his mistake, I guess this won't make a difference anyway - we both know where we stand diplomatically. But if he keeps being deluded, I could prevent PEACE from getting that data.

	31-01-2004 04:46									#72
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No, wouldn't put in words like that. Perhaps you can try by using less specific sentences.

'Great to hear.... Drones' is ok
'As for ... hotmail.com' also ok

But the rest is purposely misleading, and that just won't do diplomatically.

	31-01-2004 04:49									#73
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quote: that just won't do diplomatically.

Well, if he realized his mistake, our diplomatic situation is screwed anyway. Does it matter much what we send to the Drones from now on?

	31-01-2004 07:37									#74
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quote: I hope to hear from you soon! Mani Alpha-3 External Affairs Function of the Cybernetic Consciousness

Apparently all that work and no play reduces Drones' attention span - He didn't read to the end of Maniac's messsage

G. (chuckling)

	31-01-2004 20:35									#75
	Remove this text

My GOOOD!! What a Fooopaaa!

Well atleast we know that they havent started trading with Pirates for Adaptive Econ yet and arn't likly to steal the PEG.

I think the short simple message is better and less likly to arrouse suspicions.

On the other hand including something like "what are our chances for Vengence on the Cycons? Will the Hive assist you?" Could potentialy give great insights on the Hive/Drone relationship.

	31-01-2004 22:58									#76
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And Hive-Drones are beating us?

He must have realised, but we must send a reply as soon as possible - (nothing to lose). And we have to try to probe them about their relationship with Hive, could be useful as CC-PUT unification is nearing.

	01-02-2004 05:43									#77
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I can't believe this. Would buster really be falling for this???

Here are his mails:

cycon map 2154

Here comes a bunch of data

regards
buster

---

From that we can deduce the Drones have probed PUT at least three times this turn: Neural Grafting, SotHB, and last stealing the PUT map. It also gives us some nice details about Drone credit production and map.

Next follow-up mail of buster, information about us. Posting for the record, but just skip it, as we already know it all.

---

FYI - in case I forgot to mention - we got the cycon map from probing uni which is interesting in its own right.
It should be noted the data are from our turn - Cycon will have had a turn before it gets your turn - so you need to take that into account.

Cyborg data:

researching air power - estimated completion 14 turns (however as widespread cooperation with uni is obvious in reality they will probably get it in three).

Of techs you dont posses they have:

biogen
HEC
Synth Fossil Fuel
Secrets of human brain

Further uni has: (meaning Cycon could trade / request them)

Neural grafting
Env. econ
Eco engineering


Energy reserves:
50

Net income:
52 / year

Units:

Formers 12 - 2 in production
Scouts 9
Supply crawler 5 (7 in production)
Unity rover 1
battle ogre mk1 1
impact marines (4-1-1 marine special) 4
CCS Loveboat (4-3-6) 1
Probe defence (probe on infantry chassis) 3
Supply Mk9 (supply crawler with 3t armor) 3 (seems they are making a dash for PEG)
Impact cruiser (4-1-6) 3
Amfib impact speeder (4-1-2 marine) 1
CCS Mammoth (cruiser transport 3 armor) 1
plasma garisson (1-3-1) 3
Probe skimship (foil probe) 1
CCS impaler (cruiser transport 1 armor) 1
Boy scout (1-1-1 marine) 2
Trance scout (1-1-1 trance) 0 (3 in production)

As is visible they are PT producing crawlers - formers & trancescouts (garissons for conquered cities)


City production & turns to complete:

Apolyton prime - crawler 4
Triplex - rec common 1
Megabyteville - rec common 11
pi square - crawler 1
logic loop - crawler 1
liars lair - trance scout 2
thermal tassagrad - trance scout 2
boolean bay - crawler 5
aurora - crawler 3
athena anchorage - rec commomns 5
dbtsverse portal - former 3
zetaris - crawler 1
mythical matrix - rec common 28
binary bastion - crawler 9
casablanca - trance scout 2
and/or gate - former 3

Garissons:
Athena anchorage - CCS love boat - 50% damage + Marine scout
triplex - scout + 2 defensive probes
Megabyteville - marine scout
Binar bastion - scout
boolean bay - plasma garisson
Aurora - scout
Logic loop - ogre
Apolyton prime - scout
Mythical matrix - scout
And or gate - scout
Zetaris - scout
Pi square - scout
DBTS - reverse portal - scout

Unaccounted for (Probably coming your way)
1 scout
1 unity rover
4 impact marines
1 probe defender
3 impact cruisers
1 amphibious impact speeder
2 plasma garissons
1 probe skimship
2 cruiser transports - one of them armor class 3
1 marine scout

regards
buster

---

Odd though that he doesn't post the garrisons of the bases that are unexplored by him. It's as if he doesn't know he can check F4.

Anyway, I replied like this, following Impaler's suggestion. (The layout got a bit screwed up by hotmail - sorry.

---

Wow - thanks for all that information!! :-)
> Though it also makes me sad. :-( They have a decent number of ships and offensive marines in our vicinity so it seems, so even if we get Synthetic > Fossil Fuels from you soon, we probably still won't survive very long. Our > vengeance would have to be realized by another faction, hopefully with us as
> members of it. ;-) Therefore I'm wondering, will you in the future attack > the CyCon? And what would the Hive do? They are the allies of both of us, > but also of the Consciousness we know, so we don't know their position > clearly. :-(

---

He replied:

---

I understand if it seems a bit hopeless - the cycon apparently also
considers it pretty much a done thing as their production shows.

We have a pretty firm alliance with Hive and there can only be so many winners. Geographically though Cycon are not in our immediate reach so an invasion is not at this point a realistic option.

As I see it - it is only a matter of time. How long we will see. I would think it may be rather soon but it depends how things develop.

regards
buster

---

Not a really informative answer unfortunately. Btw, what else can I ask or reply before he realizes his mistake??

To the Gods: this is legal right? AFAIK it can be perfectly explained by eg infiltrating the PEACE networks and contacting the drones imposing as PEACE representatives, and imitating PEACE protocols etc.

	01-02-2004 08:25									#78
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

If your original message had purported to be from PEACE, I'd have considered it shady, to say the least - but you were open, and the mistake was Buster's, so capitalizing on it was, IMHO, permissable

Generally speaking I could condone any in-game duplicity. using the terranx in-game mechanics, but I do get irked when players try to exploit the 'Poly protocols (like Kody trying to infiltrate the other private forums, although I don't think he succeeded - all he managed to do was go into and out of the Hive, much as I was able to with CyCon as Rynn)

Tass - what's your take on this?

G.

	01-02-2004 08:54									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Tass - what's your take on this? G.

Whats my take?




On the legality side of it, I see nothing barring it from happening.
The Drones are the ones giving out the information. While it is a bit unethical for CyCon to be exploiting the Drones....moment of confusiong there are no rules against it.
Plus, Maniac did sign it to his name, correct?
(If YES: See? )
(If NO: Googlie, let's talk on MSN.)

	01-02-2004 09:36									#80
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So, as long as Maniac subscribes with at least 'Maniac' in his messages to Buster, it's ok to follow up this line of questioning?

Or is that not necessary anymore?

Btw, way to go Maniac

	01-02-2004 10:05									#81
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Personally, I would think that it isn't even required. Just as long as he isn't signing it as someone else, it'll be fine.

	01-02-2004 17:19									#82
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Glad to hear it isn't forbidden.

Btw, what else can I ask?? Information about us we know ourselves, questions about drone internal affairs would look odd as this is not the subject, and unless someone can come up with a non-suspicious message, it would look odd as well if we further asked about Drone-Hive relationship or Drone->CC-PUT attack plans while he already answered the question vaguely.
The best I can come up with is telling them thay we'll offer AdapEcon in our turn, but if the truth then comes out after the drone turn, it would only delay things for one turn.

Edit: Btw, another thing this affair shows is that the Drones are indeed run by buster alone, without much or without any input from all the other drone members. How else could it be explained that buster is falling for this? After all I assume that, if they knew about these mails, that some other drones who I also sent PMs to (eg jtsisyoda) or who were active in the previous ACDG (eg Main_Brain) would know that I'm no pirate.

Last edited by Maniac on 01-02-2004 at 17:31

	01-02-2004 18:38									#83
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Superb work, capitalizing on that!

	01-02-2004 20:43									#84
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Glad to hear it isn't forbidden. Btw, what else can I ask??

I sended a PM to Maniac already, but for the forum:

Let's try to find out how far the Drones want to go.
Ask them if they are willing to offer sanctuary (a base) near Drone territory, and what price they would ask for that. Answer will probably be Adap Econ, but asking can't harm. Just not tell explicit what we (as PEACE) have to offer or willing to offer. That keeps a line open for future messages.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Edit: Btw, another thing this affair shows is that the Drones are indeed run by buster alone, without much or without any input from all the other drone members.

A thought, keep in mind that it can be a trick from Buster as well. Can't think of a reason what profit he would gain be that, but needs to be said.

	02-02-2004 04:20									#85
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Let's try to find out how far the Drones want to go. Ask them if they are willing to offer sanctuary (a base) near Drone territory, and what price they would ask for that. Answer will probably be Adap Econ, but asking can't harm. Just not tell explicit what we (as PEACE) have to offer or willing to offer. That keeps a line open for future messages.

Won't that be odd, as in direct contradiction with my supposed previous request if we could join the Drones after our destruction?

quote: A thought, keep in mind that it can be a trick from Buster as well. Can't think of a reason what profit he would gain be that, but needs to be said.

I've considered that as well. For example him saying what we want to hear, thereby deluding us: saying that an invasion of CyCon is not realistic. Though on the other side, he would be going really far if he gave his enemies a screenshot with his mini-map and credit production info on it.

	02-02-2004 04:39									#86
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Won't that be odd, as in direct contradiction with my supposed previous request if we could join the Drones after our destruction?

Say something like that some other captains would prefer to stay PEACE if possible, with the benefit of having sea minerals and free naval yards. Just infaction argues.

	02-02-2004 04:54									#87
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Sounds good. Send this mail then?:

	02-02-2004 12:34									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Sounds good. Send this mail then?: Hi buster, >Geographically though Cycon are not in our immediate reach so an invasion is >not at this point a realistic option. A pity, but we have patience. :-) Btw, due to our PUT pact infiltration information I noticed that you have a needlejet hanging over Gold Coast, a base of PUT, the ally of CyCon. Hasn't the "world war" for revenge already started then yet?? :-) Anyway, regarding our possible destruction and moving to another faction, some of my fellow faction members would prefer to remain as our current faction if possible. So we were wondering, if PEACE could get a unit near your territory, would you be willing to cede a base to us to act as a safe haven? We would of course be willing to richly replay you for this, and the CyCon info you provided. :-) And having an ally with aquatic ability, naval yards etc could also prove useful for you. Read you later, Peter (so not to mention my nick Maniac and possibly start him thinking)

Made some changes. As it is now, you're not outright lying about being a PEACE member. It is something a CyCon member can ask with a straight face.
I'll put it in words like that just in case of the Powers That Be. Not completely convinced that they won't put a line under it suddenly if it gets too outrageous

And do you mean 'replay' or 'repay'?

	02-02-2004 13:56									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Peter (so not to mention my nick Maniac and possibly start him thinking)

Hmm....This is kind of bordering.....

	02-02-2004 14:56									#90
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He meant repay.

If it is bordering the why not leave out signature?