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Ennet
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Stockholm, Sweden
May 2002
time: 06:32
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this is the chat we had with GS:
[01:59] *Theseus* Get started?
[02:00] *Theseus* BRB
[02:00] *Aggie* ok
[02:00] *Cort* RP have sent us Toledo, Barca and New Madrid
[02:02] *Theseus* 
[02:02] *Cort* they could be gone next turn if we reach agreement
[02:03] *Theseus* Pregnant pause.
[02:03] *MasterZen* ok
[02:04] *MasterZen* here's the deal
[02:04] *MasterZen* as you can imagine this proposal is pretty much the only thing we've been debating for the last couple of days (weeks)
[02:04] *Cort* indeed
[02:05] *Theseus* Us to.
[02:05] *Theseus* too
[02:05] *MasterZen* however, before we accept there are two things that bother us, and might impede an arrangement to be made
[02:05] *Theseus* RP and RP?
[02:05] *MasterZen* ok, THREE things
[02:05] *Theseus* LOL
[02:06] *MasterZen* but RP was already assumed as a given, so back to the other two
[02:06] *MasterZen* to be honest, our guys are not happy at the fact that we're getting half of bob, and GS is getting not only the other half but its already massively-developed territory (minus the pretty useless North Estonaia ghetto projects)
[02:07] *Cort* less than half - Lion's share for you guys
[02:08] *MasterZen* and the second point is Lego. Lego is not the isolationist turtle it was 50 turns ago. I think this point in history they will try and win by all means, and if that inolves being actively involved in the bobian question, they will
[02:08] *Cort* You'd have just about all of ND
[02:08] *Theseus* Can we deal with the second point first? Lego?
[02:08] *Cort* Fair point, MZ - will ND call in the MPP?
[02:09] *Theseus* I am not sure what you mean about Lego, MZ.
[02:09] *MasterZen* so as long as Lego's position remains an unknown, we can't really accept. If we go to war with ND it will be with all we've got, that will leave our territory really undefended
[02:09] *MasterZen* Lego might very well not tolerate our gangbaning of ND
[02:09] *Aggie* they are capable of intervening and creating a dissaterous war for both of us
[02:10] *Cort* What if Legonian neutrality could be assured?
[02:10] *MasterZen* and especially for us :P
[02:10] *MasterZen* yeah, like GS's neutrality for this war?
[02:10] *Aggie* i have good through the war in my mind. Lego could guarentee stalemate or worse.
[02:10] *Aggie* i mean gone
[02:10] *MasterZen* its the same thing that happened with GS. We did everything to prevent GS from intervening and wrongly thought we had achieved that. And it all went to hell
[02:10] *Theseus* Ahhh, the Lego "balance" issue. FYI, I outright asked vondrack if we could hire you... he said it would be fine. Also, we are trying to arrange a chat with Nimitz.
[02:11] *MasterZen* same exact thing can happen with Lego if ND does an RP-style deal with them, think about that
[02:11] *MasterZen* if I've learned anything from this game is that even the things you think are assured, aren't
[02:11] *Theseus* I do not believe that we can jointly enter into this contract without Lego's explicit agreement.
[02:11] *Theseus* Not can't... shouldn't.
[02:12] *Theseus* In fact, I have made overtures to Lego to join in the action.
[02:12] *Theseus* Move 'balance' from 4 primary players to 3.
[02:12] *Cort* We are prepared to share our portion of Bob with Lego if they do
[02:14] *Theseus* BTW, this is going to come back around to your first issue... we are committed to a 3 team 'balance' as well, and then we'll see where the game takes us.
[02:15] *Theseus* Sidenote: As I am sure you can tell, CH and I have been carrying the ball for GS... and we both want to tell you, the diplo stuff has really been a huge amount of fun. Makes me look at RL in a new light. 
[02:16] *Cort* me too
[02:16] *Aggie* it has been fun, no matter how it turns out. Adds a real elemet to the game
[02:16] *Cort* pure fantasy politics
[02:16] *MasterZen* if it weren't for the diplomacy, I'd have no incentive to play demo games 
[02:16] *Theseus* I wish we (GS) had been better at it and focused on it earlier. We SUCKED!!
[02:17] *MasterZen* you guys should have been more active
[02:17] *MasterZen* these games aren't won by micro-managing alone
[02:17] *Ennet*
[02:17] *Aggie* the thing is with so much time, anybody can micromanage. so diplomacy and luck determine more than in normal games
[02:17] *Cort* yep, getting the builds in stuff rights has to be almost a given - the diplomacy decides it, so...
[02:18] *Theseus* As my 20-year old sister would say: "Uh... YEAH!"
[02:18] *Aggie* hehe
[02:18] *MasterZen* both are equally important if you ask me. Good diplomacy matters crap if your empire sucks. And having a big empire is no good if everyone is out set to destroy you
[02:19] *Aggie* in RP case they lost on both ends
[02:19] *Cort* Maybe the best place to be is just behind the front ...
[02:19] *Ennet* yea
[02:19] *Cort* so, how do we manage Lego?
[02:19] *Theseus* Bringing us back to issue #1: (Don't take this the wrong way, please) Would you like any assistance in matters economic? Both in terms of planning and in terms of work force?
[02:20] *Aggie* not really, we can handle it
[02:20] *Aggie* but thanks
[02:20] *Theseus* OK, thought I'd ask. Dominae and Nathan have not been to active of late, but they really are wizards.
[02:20] *Cort* did you like the Rider Upgrade Scheme?
[02:21] *Aggie* that was very helpful
[02:21] *MasterZen* if any of us here present would have managed GoW's economy from the start of the game (the crucial part) this war would be over already :P
[02:21] *Aggie* amen
[02:22] *Aggie* we came too late in some ways, just in time in others
[02:22] *MasterZen* in the economic sense we all came too late
[02:22] *Cort* What happens happens. If it hadn't been for the nasty stuff, I wouldn't be here
[02:22] *MasterZen* I joined up only until like march or april
[02:22] *Theseus* You can tell from our current status, but GS' early economic development was insane. I learned a lot.
[02:23] *Theseus* Sold me on granaries.
[02:23] *MasterZen* hehehe, I remember selling the whole granary business in the PTWDG II
[02:23] *MasterZen* they finally ended up buying it fortunately
[02:24] *Aggie* good
[02:24] *Aggie* well we are eaters, that says it all
[02:24] * MasterZen was cheif architect of Team Latin Lover's intial building planning
[02:24] *Cort* Before I joined the game, I wondered how the Strat Forum had got quieter in some way. I joined the game and found out why. The state-of-the-art stuff is in the DGs.
[02:24] *Aggie* oh crap, we're in trouble now
[02:24] *Aggie* it really is
[02:25] *Aggie* but the DG are draining
[02:25] *MasterZen* what should worry you most is that our main builder is Niessuh, that guy is a genius at building
[02:25] *Cort* you're building already?
[02:25] *Theseus* Yeah, DGs are, uh, life altering.
[02:25] *Cort* short of land, eh?
[02:25] *Cort* (sorry)
[02:25] *MasterZen* oh we got our fair share
[02:26] *Cort* So, assuming we can satisfy you with a fair share of Bob,
[02:26] *Theseus* Anyway, we presented a pretty comprehensive draft contract. Let's get down to the nitty gritty.
[02:27] *Aggie* Theseus and cort haus, as i said in our forum, the amount of time and detail you put into this, was amazing
[02:27] *Theseus* CH, really. :applause:
[02:27] *Cort* shows we're serious, right?
[02:28] *Aggie* yes indeed. Even people who might disagree, can't help but take a second look
[02:28] *Cort* So we're keen to get round the Lego problem
[02:29] *Theseus* Q: Who have you dealt with most and best at Lego? Vondrack? Nimitz?
[02:29] *Aggie* Well thats the most difficult one. If I'm lego I'd support ND and involve us the rest of the world in a war forever. aslo they get a GA out of it
[02:29] *Aggie* vondrack
[02:29] *MasterZen* guys, I have to go, I will be back in about 2-3 hours
[02:29] *Cort* cya
[02:30] *MasterZen* talk to you guys later, Theseus, Cort, cya
[02:30] *Theseus* OK, I have to watch a movie with my fiancee at 9pm EST, so let's plan on continuing with MZ after that to hopefully finish... but I have a 1/2 hour to use.
[02:31] *Theseus* Lego: 3-way chat, or should we try to queue it up first?
[02:31] *Theseus* I believe that we can do so, btw.
[02:31] *Cort* It's 1.30 am here - I'll be good for a couple of hours yet - maybe more
[02:32] *Aggie* well I approach them cautiously to feel them out. But imho it is a very difficult sale
[02:32] *** MasterZen has quit IRC (Quit: hasta la vista)
[02:32] *Ennet* it's 2.30am here :/
[02:32] *Theseus* We can also finish tomorrow morning if need be. The 24 hour rule has become... flexible.
[02:32] *Cort* We've got a bug, btw
[02:33] *Theseus* No sh*t.
[02:33] *Cort* Minor, probably
[02:33] *Theseus* Sucks.
[02:33] *Ennet* another one?
[02:33] *Aggie* again
[02:33] *Aggie* what this time
[02:33] *Ennet* your citicents have turned into sheeps?
[02:33] *Cort* the row of people that shows happiness is blank on two of the three cities we got in Spain
[02:33] *Aggie* well the rop bug with lego is irritating
[02:34] *Cort* crashed on pne players PC, seems OK otherwise on mine
[02:34] *Cort* one
[02:34] *Aggie* i would be lying if I said I think we'll ever get to the final stages of this game
[02:34] *Theseus* I know... I just don't admit to myself.
[02:34] *Cort* but we can try
[02:35] *Ennet* yea
[02:35] *Aggie* well i was glad to get at least this mych. But want to go on
[02:35] *Cort* OPD wondered if the game could be rebuilt as a scenario somehow
[02:35] *Cort* not easy - but an idea
[02:35] *Aggie* i was thinking about that
[02:35] *Theseus* Lego: If it's OK, I'd like us to try to gain their concurrence.
[02:35] *Aggie* we all do it for sims anyway to a degree
[02:37] *Aggie* go for it
[02:37] *Aggie* but part of me suspects that the deal might still fall through from our end.
[02:37] *Aggie* there isa significant element that wants no GS on BOB
[02:38] *Aggie* this is just from a game winning situation for us point of view(nothing persoanl)
[02:38] *Theseus* Ah, Aggie, I was just typing a more complete thought... wait a sec.
[02:39] *Theseus* Further: You guys want more land. I assume that regards the current ND city at the SW edge of the jungle... how about we offer that to Lego, given a commitment to share the luxes (for now)?
[02:39] *Aggie* let me see a map
[02:39] *Aggie* brb
[02:40] *Theseus* Re no GS on Bob: You can't take out ND without us, and we don;t have a shot without more land. While we in fact will be the contracting party, you benefit greatly as well.
[02:41] *Theseus* Let me say that another way: You are paying US to give you a shot, in the form of land.
[02:42] *Theseus* And resources, too, but we have addressed that in our draft contract.
[02:43] *Aggie* i see that, but there are other ways we can win. In the end we(GOW) must look at all possibilites and see which ones have the best outcome for us
[02:43] *Theseus* Fair enough.
[02:44] *Theseus* Hmmm... Lego contracts GoW to take over Bob. Possible.
[02:44] *Aggie* to be honest I must be careful, becasue to a degree I ahve been playing the game with my own plans and strategies. I am aware of the charge that I do what I and not what the team wants
[02:45] *Theseus* We've actually heard that not about you but about vondrack.
[02:45] *Aggie* it was like a scenario to me when you come into a situation and then try to find the best way to win with what you have
[02:45] *Aggie* i suspect yes
[02:45] *Aggie* most talks were between me and him
[02:46] *Theseus* I've had the sense that although your debates have been raucous, GoW has been fairly unified.
[02:47] *Theseus* brb
[02:47] *Aggie* yes they are, but this is one of those, "2 distinct sides arguements"
[02:48] *Cort* So if you see your options best invested elsewhere, do you have any suggestions as to how we might otherwise end our war?
[02:49] *Aggie* well imho a deal of trade could do it, we guarentee resources and colonies in exchange for peace.
[02:50] *Aggie* lets face it, any cities you have on bob are hopelessly corrupt. Unless you palace jump to pamploma and buidl FP in your core. But then n estonia is hopelessly corrupt. So this is about resoiurces and lux in the end
[02:52] *Cort* and ND?
[02:53] *Theseus* We are prepared to Palace Jump.
[02:53] *Theseus* To us, the end-game is about production, not just resources.
[02:54] *Theseus* I have to go in 5 min or so... is there any chance of engaging the naysayers directly?
[02:55] *Theseus* Also, nice job pinging our Knights.
[02:55] *Cort* good shooting
[02:55] *Ennet* well as we're like the only ones online..
[02:55] *Cort* tomorrow, then?
[02:55] *Aggie* we were lucky
[02:56] *Theseus* I gotta jump... let me summarize:
[02:57] *Theseus* * GoW is still undetermined as to their team choice of direction.
[02:57] *Aggie* yes we are
[02:57] *Aggie* saadly i still say a 50/50 chance of wither way
[02:57] *Aggie* either
[02:57] *Theseus* * Who gets what land (assuming that we can cut such a deal) is in question.
[02:58] *Aggie* yes,could you give us pamploma mountains north
[02:58] *Theseus* * We concur that Lego's cooperation is critical.
[02:58] *Theseus* Aggie, say that again... more clarity.
[02:59] *Aggie* is it possible you could expand our area from the mountains south of pamploma northward
[02:59] *Aggie* say Alamo remains ours
[02:59] *Aggie* and pamploma
[02:59] *Aggie* you get the coastal cities to Barcelona and the rest is a Neutral zone maybe
[03:00] *Theseus* WHOA... that is a lotta land. Gotta go, will leace this open if that's OK, and will respond later. But thanks for the counter-response!
[03:00] *Theseus* leave
[03:00] *Aggie* bye
[03:00] *Cort* ok guys, thanks for the chat
[03:00] *Ennet* be good!
[03:00] *Aggie* yes thank you
[03:00] *Cort* * exits stage left
[03:02] *** Cort has left #gow_cofa
[03:02] *Aggie* also let us know how Lego goes
[03:03] *** Aggie has quit IRC (Quit: )
im not sure if GS will be holding on to the save or not, i think they want to deal while on their turn, they wouldn't want us to come into position if we dont want to deal, or get their knights bombarded anymore ;-)
Last edited by Trip on 23-11-2003 at 09:24
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23-11-2003 07:10
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