26-11-2003 11:51									#31
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Did he ever have disciples?

	26-11-2003 12:09									#32
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Given recent developments, I'm thinking the NDP will outpoll the entire right east of Manitoba. People will be left with no other palatable choice.

I'll tell you what. If Westerners were really serious about reform, they would join one main stream party or other, en masse. The Tories would have been a good choice given their devastated prospects, but then we've been in a snit to prove something to someone so we're gonna wreck the Tories too by staging a take over that no one east of Calgary is ever gonna vote for.

Lord, I hope I'm wrong.

	26-11-2003 12:14									#33
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Why are the NDP with 12 seats considered more mainstream than the union of Alliance and conservatives? Far more people voted for them than for the fringe lefties.

	26-11-2003 12:19									#34
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I'm fearing for the perception of the Tories in the East. I am thinking that many would turn to the NDP or not vote at all rather than vote for something that Joe Clark is disowning.

If the same energy that was put into Refooooorm had been put into the Tories to begin with, Chretein would likely have lost that last election. That is a nose cut off to spite face in my books.

	26-11-2003 12:22									#35
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You mean we need MORE spineless, no-good politicians (from both parties, mind you)??

	26-11-2003 12:26									#36
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I see what you mean, for the Atlantic provinces. Problem is there is just not enough seats there to really make a difference one way or another.

The real battleground is Ontario. Will the voters in Ontario vote NDP to spite the old Tories? That I don't know. Most folks in Ontario I would think have little love for the NDP.

And who cares about Joe Who? He's a Westerner in the first place!

What if the new Conservative party ran Mike Harris?

	26-11-2003 12:33									#37
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Joe Clark has respect, even from Eastern media. Mike Harris would be road kill.

You are right that Ontario is where it is played out, and I don't see Ontario ever voting for anything it perceives to be motivated [by] Western temper tantrums.

	26-11-2003 12:38									#38
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I personally think that all major bills involving tax increases, decreases, or spending more than 10% of the budget, or any new entitlement programs should be voted on directly by the people.

Ditto declarartions of war.

	26-11-2003 12:42									#39
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Funny he should get respect for almost running the Conservative Party into the ground. Maybe those praising him were Liberals, there are are lots of them back east. So long as the Right was divided the Liberals would forever ramin in power.

What troubles me are the numbers. There needs to be a decline in Liberal support translating into a gain for the new Conservatives in order to unseat Martin. Not a big one, just 10 seats. Can you see that happening?

	26-11-2003 12:48									#40
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I think that the con-grease should be expelled - not expanded...

	26-11-2003 12:53									#41
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo I think that the con-grease should be expelled - not expanded...

I am thinking the same thing. This is why I would limit their power to do damage and leave all the big issues to a direct vote of the people.

	26-11-2003 12:54									#42
	Tired of ads?

It was Preston and Refoooooorm, along with a Western snit fit that ran the Tories into the ground. Again, if the same energy were put into the Tories as was put into Reform, the Liberals would not have had a cake walk the last time around.

Why did this happen? Half of Mulroney's cabinet was from Alberta and BC, practically. His successor was from BC, and a smart woman to boot. The West had its best time in power in Ottawa up til that time in Confederation, or since. But noooooo, that was not good enough for us. We needed to exclude ourselves. We needed Refooooooooorm!

10 seats? How are you counting the last election where the Right got 78 out of 301 seats?

	26-11-2003 13:03									#43
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Right now we have about one Representative for every half million people.

I think the population of the country is not in any relation to the number of the congress members. At your ratio 1/0.5million, China should have 2000 members in congress, which I think they don't

And don't you have there some deciding instances in every state?

	26-11-2003 13:07									#44
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When you combine the Tory and Alliance votes in the last election, we work out to be about 10 seats short of the Liberals. I can look for a source if you want, but this is just off the top of my head.

quote: if the same energy were put into the Tories

They've had more than 10 years to revive themselves after Kim Campbell, who helped make the Tories unelectable. Joe Who loses the leadership convention and now all of a sudden we are talking about one party on the right? Seems to me that he's been keeping the party down.

And before you get to dissing the West, remember that the Bloc were the Official opposition. More Quebeckers jumped ship than the Westerners after the debacle in 1992.

	26-11-2003 13:26									#45
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Hard to blame Quebec nationalists for looking after the best interests of Quebec over Canada. That I understand.

What I don't understand is Westerners all around me screaming how we are hard done by and need reform when the PM we turned our collective backs on was from BC and when her party had given us 3 PMs from Western Canada since 1950.

And it is sort of hard to revive yourself when your core constituants are dedicated to cutting their own noses off to spite their faces while being led down the garden path by the pied piper of forlorn hopes.

And don't get your hopes up. Unless the Tory establishment in the East comes out as for this, you can kiss electoral chances in Ontario good bye. It will take a great deal more Liberal corruption before Central Canada is willing to bite down and welcome a solution made in Western Canada to a Confederation they do not see as broken.

	26-11-2003 13:43									#46
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quote: Hard to blame Quebec nationalists for looking after the best interests of Quebec over Canada.

And yet you still say..

quote: welcome a solution made in Western Canada to a Confederation they do not see as broken.

The whole issue with Quebec has served to highlight the problems of Confederation. I do not support the actions of the Quebec nationalists to deface the Confederation, but you either build it up or tear it down. According to the Quebec nationalists, Confederation is broken, and has been so for some time.

Anytime we come within 1% of losing the second most populous province speaks to me the need for reform. Who better to lead the charge than the west, with our share of grievances yet always wanting to keep Canada together? Yet we see the Liberals appease Quebec for their disloyalty, and we wonder, why not?

quote: while being led down the garden path by the pied piper of forlorn hopes.

Embodied by Joe Who.

	26-11-2003 13:48									#47
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Last word.

Joe did a pretty good job of consolidating and rebuilding in the East while the West was following Preston down the garden path.

And, as long as you and enough others think that Westerners are going to ride into Ottawa atop a protest movement and change things will be as long as the West is shut out of power in Canada. Decide for yourselves how long that will be.

	26-11-2003 14:07									#48
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Thanks for the discussion, NYE.

And by doing a merger, we've made our decision. We want to be a part of things, even if that means moderating some of the Western protest party imagery. The protest party people would see this merger as diluting the qualities of Refooorm.

I've got to go to bed myself. Got a long day tomorrow.

It's a shame they didn't give into their more mischievious sides by calling this new part, Confooorm!

	26-11-2003 17:12									#49
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quote: I personally think that all major bills involving tax increases, decreases, or spending more than 10% of the budget, or any new entitlement programs should be voted on directly by the people.

No thank you! I don't want poor people directly voting in massive entitlement programs so they can sit on their asses!

	26-11-2003 19:54									#50
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Solid Canadian politics threadjack, fellas.

That seems to happen a lot. Who knew our northern neighbors were so into politics? They might even get worked up enough to write a letter!

-Arrian

	26-11-2003 20:08									#51
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Why write a letter when you can gripe on some internet gaming forum

	26-11-2003 20:26									#52
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd No thank you! I don't want poor people directly voting in massive entitlement programs so they can sit on their asses!

Note, David, I did not say that they must originate with the people, only that they must be approved by the people.

In "Kali-"fornia, direct democracy, on the whole, has been "conservative." The people here have lowered taxes and recalled an incompetent governor. The people who tend to be against direct democracy are the Democrats.

	26-11-2003 21:31									#53
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Adam Smith made a point in another thread about rules and regs made by Congress, which got me to thinking. Then the 690 page Kill-Medicare bill was just passed, which was only given to legislators last week, hardly enough time to read the bill. I was thinking, 635 really isn'ta all that many to be able to specialize in the various bills the Congress needs to deal with. So, should we increase the size of Congress so we can have more committees with less subjects?

No. Why would we need to pay more of these morons to handwave over things they cannot comprehend no matter how much time they have?

	26-11-2003 22:04									#54
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quote: Solid Canadian politics threadjack, fellas.

Been awhile since we've had one, and willing Canadian participants. Look at the times for NYE and myself, both up quite late last night.

That's why they are sorta rare.

I'm still waiting for che's response to what we did to his thread.

	26-11-2003 23:06									#55
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Actually, a former college professor of mine (a Republican, to boot... wierd, I know.. like the only Republican teaching at Rutgers ), said that we should DRAMATICALLY increase the House of Representatives, up to 2000 members. Even though there is low voter turnout having so many districts means that certain groups of people are well representated. Right now districts contain very different groups, some have industrial, rural, and commercial areas all wedged into one. Having more districts would seperate the areas and have them better representated.

Even though it'd cost more in renovating Congress and office space, I'm totally for it! 2000 Representatives baby! Senate stays the same, though... or rather goes back to being by state legislature vote .

Of course this has NOTHING to do with che's original post which was a total non sequiter and a jump of monumental proportions from a bill to more Congressmen .

	26-11-2003 23:16									#56
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Any time some one begins a sentence with "A college professor of mine says" I automatically know that what is to follow is liberabal hogswallow/BS. Though once someone did regurgitate some good ol' fashion Republican TRUTH, but they really had no idea what they had just said...

	26-11-2003 23:34									#57
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quote: "A college professor of mine says" I automatically know that what is to follow is liberabal hogswallow/BS.

He was a dyed in wool Republican, if you read beyond that .

	26-11-2003 23:42									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Considering that more BC folks than Prairie people voted for the Alliance tells me that the party attracts folks from all over

Ummm...by "all over" do you mean from BC to Man.? Because you still have a problem in that that region of the country onlu contains 30% of its population.

How's the alliance doing recently? I haven't seen any poll numbers since they posted in 4th place.

	26-11-2003 23:44									#59
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More congressmen would mean more pork spending, I would rather reduce numbers, cutting the house by 20% to 50% and reducing senators to 1 per state. Gerrymandering would then also be more difficult wiht larger districts (or at least more silly looking).

	26-11-2003 23:46									#60
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It was Preston and Refoooooorm, along with a Western snit fit that ran the Tories into the ground. Again, if the same energy were put into the Tories as was put into Reform, the Liberals would not have had a cake walk the last time around. Why did this happen? Half of Mulroney's cabinet was from Alberta and BC, practically. His successor was from BC, and a smart woman to boot. The West had its best time in power in Ottawa up til that time in Confederation, or since. But noooooo, that was not good enough for us. We needed to exclude ourselves. We needed Refooooooooorm! 10 seats? How are you counting the last election where the Right got 78 out of 301 seats?

Hell, I agree with everything's NYE's saying. Though of course, I encourage as much extremism among Western conservatives as possible, given that our goals diverge...