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Ision
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The GREEKS
Commercial and scientific, oh how the money and the techs roll in! In PTW the Greeks always fared better than most CIVs. Play enough epic games and you began to notice that one of the few non-Industrious Civs that the AI plays well is Greece. Greece and Korea were AI Civs that typically started slow, but if they survived, almost assuredly became strong late game threats. The dynamics of their traits was in itself a boost to the AIs problems with becoming gold depleted and technologically backward by the Industrial age.
For the human Greek player, Greece was a wonderful builder CIV. Their assets include: Cheap Libraries and Universities, tons of cash to hurry and upgrade quickly, better science research, a free tech every age, a strong defensive UU (the Hoplite 1-3-1) that may keep your military expenditures down in the early game, also that UU tends to make aggressive AIs far more leery of an early Ancient age attack. The Greek traits/UU lend themselves to a very efficient game play when ugly situations arise unexpectedly. In the late game the Greek commerce can be a game saver and an AI game breaker. Warmongering with the Greeks can also be very rewarding. The warmongering Greek typically starts very peacefully, amassing gold and preparing his infrastructure in depth, the Greek can launch a massive late middle age Cavalry rush. Correctly played Greece could mass upgrade the very turn of a major military unit improvement, which in turn will lead to the quick demise of any foe! Want to launch a Space Race victory, just try to beat the Greeks to those techs! Want to be the worlds banker, beloved by all, sitting pretty on a UN vote – just try to beat the Greeks! Want to beat the Greeks to a cultural win – even the Babylonians will have their hands full trying.
On the downside is the fact that the science trait in PTW was simply not that strong compared to other traits. Secondly, while a good warmonger can ‘war’ with any CIV – Greece, while certainly not among the worst, was also not a first choice. No one runs past China, Germany or the Vikings to play the Greeks for a Conquest/Domination game. Lastly, that UU had 2 drawbacks; you are always in danger of an AI initiating an early Golden Age for Greece, and it was an awkward UU to initiate a GA with after the Ancient Age. Another drawback is that lazy PTW Greek worker that always took too damn long to do anything! Lastly, that tremendous late game flexibility of the Greeks is tempered by a somewhat not so flexible early game.
So how do the Greeks fare with C3C? After playing a few games with the Greeks again, I have come to the following conclusions:
C3C has seen the resurrection of the science trait. The addition of the possibility of a Great Scientific Leaders for the first Civ to discover a tech makes for even stronger Greek play. The greater need to do your own research for techs also enhances Greece as a top choice. Once the ‘bugs’ are ironed out in the patch, the commercial trait will benefit immensely. The dynamics of the science/commercial combo will be accentuated to an even greater degree than ever before. The toning down of the Industrious trait alone, improves your workers ability in an indirect manner. C3C sees an already strong Greece, become even stronger. An excellent PTW builder CIV is now a hands down top 3 choice. An average warmonger CIV, is made a far more viable choice.
In summary, the Greek play in and of itself remains essentially the same. What has changed is the effects of that play are far stronger. If you liked the Greeks before – you’ll love them now!
Last edited by Ision on 19-12-2003 at 12:29
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Jethro83
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Newcastle, Australia
Mar 2002
time: 15:32
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I'd be lying if I said I played as the Greeks a lot. However, I agree wholeheartedly that the Greeks can make for a very strong civ and a very enjoyable game.
However, instead of restricting my warmongering to the later eras when well-established, I did do a limited amount of warmongering in the late ancient era as soon as I switched to republic. That way, the golden age sets me up to be able to get my marketplaces up quickly, and perhaps even build up more horsemen, so that by the middle ages, I could have loads of cash, and horsemen, both of which would give a huge army of knights to intimidate the enemy into staying off my back even when the hoplite no longer has its comparatively intimidating defensive power.
Once universities and banks are in place, the rest of the game is just a long cruise to a Diplomatic/Space Race victory, selling my older techs to my opponents to even further raise my income. I might occasionally expand my territory with a few early industrial wars, particularly if it means monopolizing on a luxury (thus opening up another commodity to sell).
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CerberusIV
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With more expensive upgrades in C3C the hoplite avoids the spearman to pikeman upgrade, thus potentially saving some cash.
Edit: I know you don't actually save any gold since it costs to upgrade later but the later upgrade is likely to be more affordable after you have built banks and maybe switched to a more lucrative government.
Last edited by CerberusIV on 27-11-2003 at 21:55
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Ision
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Your correct, I have moved it to the Strategy forum.
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gunkulator
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Greece, Rome and Carthage are rotten to have as neighbors since they are just so hard to conquer with an archer or horseman rush. If they grabbed a resource before you did, you are pretty much out of luck until the middle ages at best.
That being said, I often pick a fight with the Greeks anyway in the ancient era to trigger a despotic GA for them. Not being Militaristic, an early Greek civ tends to send a bunch of regulars like archers who are weak on attack. Sue for peace a few later and then bide your time until knights come along.
Periodically attack Greece with knights in the middle ages. Not being religious, they are good targets for an oscillating war. Helps to offset their com/sci combo. If you can't take their cities, focus on pillaging and capturing workers with sneak attacks. Greece is not industrious so they are slow to recover from pillaging.
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Crimson Phalanx
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Ilion, Athens, Greece
Nov 2000
time: 05:32
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Well, I may be one of the few civ players that almost always plays with some specific tribe and in my case this is Greeks, just out of a - silly if you want! - preference towards my actual nalionality, but definitely not due to nationalistic reasons!! The things is that I was glad to see a thread started just to comment Greeks and I will agree to every single statement Ision made. Yes, it is "the" tribe to play with if you are one of us who don't really like war but enjoy creating a great empire. It needs a lot of patience and courriage to make it through hard ancient times, but all of your efforts will be rewarded in mid and late game when you can see your emprire thriving to victory. And yes, it is a great feeling to know that those Hoplites will prove to be too hard to die against even the most aggressive opponents (remember how Persians in their most glorious time failed to conquer Greeks twice!!!)...
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Snotty
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I've been playing around with Greece recently. I was attracted by the beefed Sci trait.
I found Hoplites extremely useful as cover for an offensive force. Both Rome and Carthages 3 defense units cost more, so a dedicated hoplite pump can produce vet units like nothing else. Add some swords or horses and you've got yourself a scary stack.
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gunkulator
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Ya don't say, Ision?
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27-11-2003 13:13
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