28-11-2003 13:10									#1
	MOW: The War From Here Onwards Support Apolyton

Now that Catchopolis has been abandoned we have to decide how we want to end the war.

We basically have two main options: we can go west towards BoP with our main army or we can go south towards Anarchy. Of course, we could do both, but things might get ugly then. After all, we only have 10 MIs total at the front.

As I posted in the Turn-by-Turn thread, I suggest we go west. We move 4 this turn with our main army, and build a fort stealing some of GCA's roads hopefully either catching some of their units out in the open and/or cutting off BoP from the rest of GCA's empire to the southeast. If they cut the roads then we don't have to build the fort city, we simply press westwards towards BoP without building the fort.

Part of the reason I wish to go west first is because CFC has informed us that they have 9 MIs, 5 Horsemen, Pikes and Catapults heading east from their lands and will be able to attack BoP in a maximum of 5 turns (if they wish to do so). Should they capture the city or help us in besieging it (which Octavian wanted to do... a joint siege) then that will certainly help their claims to BoP. Should THEY capture it, then we probably won't even have any force in pressing the issue.

If GCA cuts the road east of BoP and retreats all of their army in the direction we're heading then we can simply stop outside of BoP, cut the road leading eastwards of it and start heading south again. CFC will be pinned against a 10 Pike GCA BoP while we can take care of Anarchy and Silkatalia in the meantime.

Image of theater with proposed fort site included:

	28-11-2003 13:14									#2
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There are other things to discuss that are very much so interrealated with this issue. The problem is, It's really late, and I don't have time to post about it.

I'll Hope that Nye does a litle bit.

E_T

	28-11-2003 13:22									#3
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What E_T means is that as CFC is heading from the west, they will want to lay claim to the BoP site.

Right now we have 2 Settlers remaining in the theater. However, we have 3 things to do with them: BoP site (when they abandon it), New Catchopolis site and the fort city site.

Should we get to BoP and they abandon the city we won't have enough Settlers to cover all three sites. If CFC comes in and we don't have a Settler to rebuild BoP (though we can always sacrifice the New Catchopolis site until we get another Settler down there and go for the other two sites instead) then we would have to block the site with units in order to prevent them from doing the same (and possibly building a city in the site, though I haven't seen any of their cities drop pop, and yes I have been watching ). However, I believe that we can always say that we were defending the site from possible GCA units heading from the west, since we (honestly) don't know what they have over there and what they might release into our flatlands.

	28-11-2003 13:28									#4
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Well...

One big issue is that we have 2 settlers, and might need 3 cities.

1 is the future capital. Call it Apolyton Nova.

Another is the possible fort city to steal roads from GCA and possibly catch some of their forces in the open, if they are dumb enough to do that again.

The third is BoP itself, since GCA will certainly not leave the city there if we move adjacent with the SoD... unless they radically change their behavior between this turn and 3 or 4 from now.

The thing is, to me, that they are way out of position as things stand. They have 5 pikes near Anarchy. If we move the SoD 4, then I would bet a testicle that they shift forces towards BoP. Those forces would end up at BoP 6. IF they do not pillage the roads at BoP 6 6 and 9 9, then those pikes will be laid out before us as a banquet for the starved.

If they do not shift towards BoP, then 10MIs and friends drop in on BoP in 3 turns, long before CFC can get there.

The issue then becomes whether cfc or we can get a city there first. Well, we have another settler in theatre. If we use the SoD settler for a fort city, then we are 5 or 6 turns from BoP with a settler to secure the choke point for us. Unfortunately, this means a delay in founding Apolyton Nova. That means a delay in the Palace jump.

The question comes down to...

Do we place a higher priority on Palace jump soonest without reguard to who occupies BoP, or do we possibly delay the Palace jump to ensure that BoP remains in our hands.

	28-11-2003 13:34									#5
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Also, how do we deal with CFC over the fate of BoP? Oct was pushing for us to arrange (read delay) for a joint assault.

FAM, you're up.

	28-11-2003 13:52									#6
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Do we place a higher priority on Palace jump soonest without reguard to who occupies BoP, or do we possibly delay the Palace jump to ensure that BoP remains in our hands.

Well, the main factor in the target for a palace jump is city size. If we add 1 Worker to New Catchopolis/Apolyton Nova then we make up for the time the city would be growing had we built it sooner. This being the case, I don't think the Palace jump issue would have much effect at all in the long run, if any.

	28-11-2003 14:13									#7
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Why not move the SOD "1"

SOD "4" shows our hand.. we are moving on BoP
SOD "1" allows us to attack either BoP or Anarchy
(Assuming the road network remains in place)


I understand that by moving towards BoP, they may just raze the city anyway, giving us free access to our settler. But I still like having the option of hitting multiple targets. They will have to split their defenses.

Regs

	28-11-2003 14:21									#8
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Part of the hope packaged in the plan is that they DO think we're going for BoP, and thus try to move the forces by Anarchy back towards BoP where we can attack them using our new fort.

Plus they have a Horse on the only road tile we could possible steal should we move 1 instead of 4. I think the chances of leaving that tile unpillaged are very very low simply because they already have a Horse RIGHT there. However, I think we still have somewhat of a chance of them leaving the furs tile unpillaged because it would leave units at BoP 6 exposed to our Horses.

	28-11-2003 14:36									#9
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By moving "4", they have to pillage
BoP 9,9 & BoP 6,6

By moving "1", they have to also pillage
BoP 6,6 & Anarchy 8,8
Or our horsemen can reach Arnarchy.

I think they will do both tiles whatever move we make.
But "1" still gives them indecision.

My 2c

	28-11-2003 15:08									#10
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If we move 1 then there's really no chance that they will concentrate outside of one city or the other and thus won't give us a chance to hit them with the full force of our army. Basically, we'd have to defeat entrenched units whereever they went to. Moving 4 at least gives us a chance at taking our their units unfortified on flat land with no city.

If we move 4 and they do pillage both BoP 9-9 and BoP 6-6 then we can move to BoP 6-6 the following turn and build our fort there, stealing other tiles allowing us to move adjacent to Anarchy that turn (assuming they move the bulk of their forces towards BoP as well).

If we move 4, they pillage roads and keep their forces divided as they are, then... well... it doesn't really matter whether we move 1 or 4 this turn because their army would remain in the same location either way. The only difference would be that our army would be in a different spot and different roads would be pillaged.

Last edited by Trip on 28-11-2003 at 15:15

	28-11-2003 20:09									#11
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If it comes down to a choice between an earlier palace jump and getting BoP, I'd actually rather have BoP. Perhaps that's just me...

btw... I suggest we not give in yet to the temptation to build a lot more settlers just yet... the fact that that GCA army is retreating means that we'll have yet to face it at some point... they will collect even more forces between now and then and we could use any additional forces of our own that we can muster. There's got to be a final battle at SOME point... eventually, they'll have no-where left to run.

	28-11-2003 20:11									#12
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(nevermind)

	28-11-2003 20:22									#13
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The main Issue is having the chokepoint in our hands, without CFC knowing that it was gone and then rebuilt by us. If we take more than a turn to rebuild, then they would possibily see it as us not "keeping with our Bargin" so to speak.

The delay of building Apolyton Nova (Nova for short), 2 turns isn't bad, but the next settler won't be down there for and have the city built for 8 more turns. Not that that would seem like much, but for on thing, it it 8 turns of growth that we wouldn't have towards the palace move.

I agree to delaying Nova the 2 turns that it will take for the Settler nana to get into place, but I don't want to delay it any more than needs to be.

We will be embarking on a massive REX project and will need Approxamately 30 settlers total to be built. So using one of the 2 settlers for another Fort city is not a very good option, at this time.

E_T

	28-11-2003 20:24									#14
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I fully suspect that they are picking up shop and moving it to that Island that is SW of CFC.

We need to see if CFC can switch a build(s) to Galleys, and possibly intercept them.

E_T

	28-11-2003 20:31									#15
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Couldn't we add a worker to Inevitable and rush a settler from there?

I like Trip's and nye's plan overall, though H_E's revisal does have some merit.

	28-11-2003 20:54									#16
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Actually, I'm going to need that early worker down there.

As for rushing things, that I not an option at this point in time, because of the news from CGN (speaking of which, someone needs to post that). We need to get them GP as fast as possible, or they might lose to GWT.

E_T

	29-11-2003 00:29									#17
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quote: Originally posted by E_T The main Issue is having the chokepoint in our hands, without CFC knowing that it was gone and then rebuilt by us. If we take more than a turn to rebuild, then they would possibily see it as us not "keeping with our Bargin" so to speak.

Wouldn't CFC see a big pop drop anyway and suspect what happened?

	29-11-2003 01:04									#18
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we can always say that the cats killed 2 pop and it always loses 1 when you take it. So, that's not an Unreasonable Issue.

E_T

	29-11-2003 01:12									#19
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Unless the road network is left intact we won't be able to rebuild the city before CFC sees it's gone.

	29-11-2003 03:29									#20
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I'm starting to think that we should move west, then pop the city, next turn. It will all depend on several things, but I beleave that we might be able to take BoP intact if we do.

For some reason, they have removed their walls, either as a feint to draw us in, away from the Dunkirk at Anarchy or to try to keep us too far away from our logistics line.

I'm leaning towards the Dunkirk option.

E_T

	29-11-2003 03:30									#21
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Also, I think that we should move WWNN 7, so that he can better watch for a GCA galley moving north from BoP.

E_T

	29-11-2003 03:36									#22
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quote: Originally posted by E_T I'm starting to think that we should move west, then pop the city, next turn. It will all depend on several things, but I beleave that we might be able to take BoP intact if we do.

You finally give in eh? 'Bout time.

quote: For some reason, they have removed their walls, either as a feint to draw us in, away from the Dunkirk at Anarchy or to try to keep us too far away from our logistics line. I'm leaning towards the Dunkirk option.

Actually they never had Walls in BoP.

I still don't see why you're so convinced they're doing something big with Galleys. They only have one and that was probably only to get rid of our Galley which was continually threatening their east coast. If they try to land units anywhere then they'll be quickly killed and it will end up being a waste of resources.

	29-11-2003 03:37									#23
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Also, I think that we should move WWNN 7, so that he can better watch for a GCA galley moving north from BoP.

I plan on moving 2 this turn (to see if they have anything on the mountain northeast of BoP) then we can return WWNN to the tile you propose.

	29-11-2003 07:23									#24
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I agree with Trip moving the troops to the Forest (location of Carthage on his map) tile. However, what do do afterwards will depend very much on GCA response :

1. GCA had made mistakes before. If their horse does not cut the road, and they leave Pikes on Plains/Grassland for us to attack, we should capitalise on that by building the Fort City.

2. However, if their Pikes near Dun move into Dun instead of retreating to BoP, or we do not have the chance to go for easy prey, then we should not build the Fort City. Instead, the settler should resettle at/around the old Catchopolis site, to prepare for the palace move. And we should redirect our troops Eastwards and go for Dun and Server Fire. Once we finished off these cities, we will cut off their resources completely and we do not have to worry about GCA forces moving Northwards via land and threaten our cities in the North. This will also allow us to move our troops, settlers, workers safely to the South and also plan for city improvements better.

Another comment - there are 2 points that Trip did not touch on :

a) with the War coming to an end, are we planning for our GA soon ?
b) to go for BoP, we need intelligence. we need a screenshot from CFC on BoP, maybe the turn before we attack. This request is tricky considering that CFC has motive on BoP too.

	29-11-2003 09:01									#25
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We do NOT need to spend more gold on investigations. Please!

The reason we are running a surplus is to speed up the next tech. The entire purpose is defeated if we continually spend the surplus, and we will end up a third world power.

Please, please, please... stop trying to spend that gold!

	29-11-2003 19:53									#26
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither We do NOT need to spend more gold on investigations. Please! The reason we are running a surplus is to speed up the next tech. The entire purpose is defeated if we continually spend the surplus, and we will end up a third world power. Please, please, please... stop trying to spend that gold!

So I guess subsidized day-care and an increase in the welfare rate are out of the question.

	30-11-2003 02:25									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Beta So I guess subsidized day-care and an increase in the welfare rate are out of the question.

Give that monkey a banana.

	30-11-2003 19:31									#28
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither We do NOT need to spend more gold on investigations. Please! The reason we are running a surplus is to speed up the next tech. The entire purpose is defeated if we continually spend the surplus, and we will end up a third world power. Please, please, please... stop trying to spend that gold!

I fully agree with NYE on this. As I've said, I've often commented during chats that there seems to be a mentality around here that we have to burn a hole in our collective pockets every time people see the treasury in the black. That said, *I* voted in favor of spending the 66 gold on *this* past investigation because I felt it was one exceptionally rare case in which the expenditure was fully justified.

I'll go back to being my old stingy self now