03-06-2000 23:43									#1
	Cheating Confessions Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Way back when I first got the mp gold ed. for Mac, I played a game and looked at the other civs in between sessions. It was a strange compulsion driving me to do this - it was not so much that I wanted to get a tactical edge, but was just very curious about how others played the game. I wanted to compare and learn, but I could have done this after a game I suppose.

After looking, I was hit by the old conscience - CHEATER!!! Resuming the game was really a chore, I wanted to lose since I knew where everyone was and what they were doing and had cheated to get this knowledge. Fortunately, this was well before entering Apolyton and I dont even remember the other players - I'd apologise if I did.

Needless to say, the feeling of guilt is quite vivid in my mind and have refrained from peaking at other civs or any other unethical behavior since that fateful day - and yet here I am confessing my sin of long ago. I guess I'm a little curious about all of you - have you ever cheated or played unethically and regretted it so much you went 'straight'?

	04-06-2000 02:24									#2
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No never cheated

I have enough trouble sleeping as it is

	04-06-2000 07:29									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Can't say as I have. Though your experience, Bez, hardly constitutes cheating, IMHO. You didn't use any gleaned information to your advantage. Youthful curiosity - well, you know what I mean - got the better of you. And you're a good and brave soul for posting.

------------------
finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

	04-06-2000 17:17									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by berzerker on 06-03-2000 02:43 PM</font>
Way back when I first got the mp gold ed.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Could be read: his first game and every game since.

	04-06-2000 18:59									#5
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AH - <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Could be read: his first game and every game since
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

This could be true if you missed this:

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Berzerker: have refrained from peaking at other civs or any other unethical behavior since that fateful day
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

How would you read this?

	05-06-2000 09:38									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I have no problem accepting Berzerker's assurance on this matter. After all, he didn't *have* to post anything on the subject in the first place. Would he have raised the question if trying to hide current cheating?

I doubt it.

AlexHorse went a bit too far with his comment. I'm sure it was meant to be humorous/challenging/sardonic (as many of his excellent posts are), but this is a rather more sensitive subject, and I hope he understands that such posts can easily hurt people.

	05-06-2000 03:25									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by berzerker on 06-03-2000 02:43 PM</font>


Needless to say, the feeling of guilt is quite vivid in my mind and have refrained from peaking at other civs or any other unethical behavior since that fateful day


<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Well berzerker its like when people say on TV, "I am not a thief". Subconsciously, most people think, "must be a thief then". This is why politicians are coached by media consultants not to repeat the allegations against them when denying them.

Cavebear, don't be neurotic.

	05-06-2000 03:55									#8
	Remove this text

hehe, its even harder to play with the guilt of unfair playing. He is right, you want to no do as well if you believe u have an unfair advantage.

I remember i was playing a game and my ally had to go. He dumped me all his cities. I announced it but everyone wanted to play. Couldn't bring myself to play at full potential

suas of the O.W.L.

	05-06-2000 05:49									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

AH - <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>its like when people say on TV, "I am not a thief"
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Yes, after being accused - and not every denial is a lie. But what does that say about the principle of innocent until proven guilty? You have taken it a step further, guilty until accused, lol.

Cavebear - <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>I'm sure it was meant to be humorous/challenging/sardonic (as many of his excellent posts are)
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I thought so too at first...

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>I hope he understands that such posts can easily hurt people.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I'm more amused by the irony of his comments given his complete ignorance without my confession.

	05-06-2000 05:53									#10
	Put an end to popups!

Come to think of it berzerker, taking this "I am not a thief" thing to its logical conclusion, if you have publicly confessed to cheating, subconsciously people will be thinking you never actually did and you're making this up.

You're in the clear! Congratulations

	05-06-2000 06:07									#11
	Suffering from ads?

But what was my motive? Empress has already figured out what I'm doing

	05-06-2000 08:22									#12
	Tired of ads?

Well I must confess and be honest with all of you, I am too lazy to cheat. People tell me different ways,but I just have no desire,if we were playing for money perhaps I might look at a map,but even then its too much work.After a game I am either in another game right away or going to bed.I have looked at game saves after a game is finished if I thought someone was cheating,but even that is seldom,and usually obvious after 1 look at a path to a hut bypassing river exploration.I will say though after my last 2 weeks of league games I think more people use the 2 computer look at map trick than we imagine.Hey I build computers I guess I could do that too,but then I would have to get up and go in another room,and that way taps into my bong smoking time

	05-06-2000 17:19									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I once picked the wrong civ when resuming a duel!

I didn't see a thing before restarting, but I felt like a cheater when I assured the other player I hadn't seen his empire.

I don't cheat in the true sense of the word, i.e. using software to give myself advantages, loading games on a second computer or peeking in between sessions.

I do cross the line if you consider these things cheats:

- Buying units incrementally
- Maximizing trade in cities before sending caravans in
- Giving caravans away
- etc, etc...

If I agree not to use these things, I stick to the agreement.

I never build airbases on hills!

Carolus

	05-06-2000 17:59									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I have long used the automate-settler-to-irrigate-where-there-is-no-water cheat. Actually, I never thought of it as a cheat, until some people mentioned it as such.

------------------
Curumbor Elendil
jason.sorens@yale.edu
ICQ 56126989

	05-06-2000 19:53									#15
	Suffering from ads?

I once login as another player to see the map (he did not use password). It was a 6 player game, 3 2-person alliances. MWHC and Matt was slow in start, so MWHC gave Rah and me his map to show 'goodwill'. Later we helped MWHC and Matt to meet each other. We even shared wonder with them and gave them techs.

But I was curious if MWHC was doing the same thing to the other alliance (Ming and another player). So after the first session I peeked at the map (I saw that the other side got his map, too). But I did not say anything and kept on playing. I agreed with Rah to give gunpowder (which MWHC immediately gave Ming), and also agreed to share the workshop and SOL with MWHC.

Then after the third session MWHC could not keep his 'secret' and told us that we were snowballed. Then I told him that I had looked at the map. Although people did not say I was cheating, we did not continue the game. I think that was my fault.

I just couldn't bear to be fooled. Actually i did not need to log in as others to confirm my thought. I just needed to use a diplo to investigate one of Ming's cities and look at his map.

	06-06-2000 09:36									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Xin - Did you say an opponent can look at someone's map by investigating a city? Ouch! I've been playing this more than a year and never knew that...

	06-06-2000 09:47									#17
	Put an end to popups!

Ah XIN, the pleasures of playing with MWHC in the early days. You'd be allies and you would still wonder if it was a good idea to give him your map. He added a wonderful aspect of unpredictability that is sometimes missing from current games. He was the King of the Double Deal. Sometimes you wanted to kill him, but other times you just had to tip your hat to him.

RAH

	06-06-2000 09:57									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Berz: You can't see where his cities are, but you can see where is his black area and where is not.

	06-06-2000 06:48									#19
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how thats one i never heard before. Investigating city for that, incredible.

	06-06-2000 10:06									#20
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i just learned the continent # trick.

(click on unexplored territory to c if the land ends, Loc x,y) z z is the continent #)

i started doing this and thus got more huts.

i have now stopped and feel guilty for exploiting this bug.

	06-06-2000 11:12									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I must say I fall into the "too lazy to cheat" category. I couldn't be bothered clicking away on the dark parts of the map for example. It would be just too boring.

One thing I do though is practice turns. I don't get ahead of the game but just go to my current saved turn and practice it, plan next moves etc. Sound crazy? Not if your planning a big military operation next turn. I also like to measure distances - how many turns to point x or y etc. Again I do this mainly for military purposes. Sometimes for trade (which city is closer, best route). I spend a lot of time studying the map. I love maps.

Oops, most of this is irrelevant to this thread



------------------
Founder of the People's Republic of Topics (PROT)

Convenor of the Threadjacking Appreciation Society (new members welcome)

	06-06-2000 15:01									#22
	Put an end to popups!

But it warmed our hearts to hear it anyway.

------------------
finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

	06-06-2000 23:12									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

how does the location numbers x,y tell u where the land ends?

	07-06-2000 00:10									#24
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Well my big cheat was in an arena match with MWHC as a partner against Xin and Rah. We were getting smoked. And that's the game MWHC first did the old use two computers to check the map out. (Which he posted on apolyton after the game) He had both computers humming, and he was giving me updates on incoming enemy units. The funny thing is, it didn't really help, they just murdered us anyway.
I've tried a few of the other cheats out in games when they are discovered to see how they work. I did create a non ship once when told that somebody had figured that out in a game. But in most cases, other people are also trying it out since they were new, and they are always posted right after, and I never use them again. (but I do add them to the cheat thread )

And, like CR, I don't cheat. Unless you consider incremental buying and some of the other little things cheats. Plus, if people agree not to do them, I don't.

There are just so many disagreements on what's allowed or not... so we always discuss it before the game starts...

	07-06-2000 00:47									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Well Ming I thought you did not know MWHC was peeping. He (after letting us wait for 10 minutes) sent a diplo and bribed my workshop city, which I instantly bribed back. I knew he was peeping. My troops were set up in such a way that his diplo could only get to that city by following a perticular route. If he had not looked at the map he would have bumped into my troops well before reaching my city. I remember accusing him of looking at the map, but did not give any explanation.

	07-06-2000 01:09									#26
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Just remembered, in that game I had another clue that you guys had peeped the map. I sent a diplo, a settler, and a musk to the north end of your territory. Two spaces north to your city but you could not see my units. My settler was building a road but you found me before it could finish. If it had finished my diplo could go down and bribe the city (the square in between was a roaded forest). My settler was there for about 3 turns (it was a mountain so the road was not finished). Actually at first I though about building a city there and bribing your city instantly. But I was too eager to see flight in those days that I did not want to scare you away so early.

	07-06-2000 01:39									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Ah! This is what I was hoping for, some real confessions, not these people who've never cheated Btw Xin, Curumbor and I tried the diplo investigation/map button and I could see his city (the civ had only 1 city) centered in an open (investigated) area. He investigated my civ which did have 3 cities but I forgot to ask him if he saw all 3 cities. The map was rudimentary so not much info was offered by that technique - but I suppose you could see if any cities were very close by.

Okay, I just spoke to Curumbor and he said all 3 cities did show on the map as white dots.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by berzerker (edited June 06, 2000).]</font>

	07-06-2000 02:25									#28
	Put an end to popups!

My favorite was when Ming got all huffy and accused Xin of cheating because Xin was able to triangulate the location of one of Ming's cities (Philadephia) through the use of the "closest to feature". Meanwhile Xin had named all of his cities Boston (which was ming's closest city) so Ming thought he had a whole lot of room to expand into. Yes, the first few games were a riot as we tried to outdo each other in taking advantage of loopholes/bugs. New ones were found every game. Of course I would always get pissed because MWHC would never build enough caravans to trade with me.

RAH
But the best thing is, I now trust all of these guys not to use any of them if it's been agreed to up front.

	07-06-2000 02:26									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

OK, so how DO you create NONE units? I've never figured this one out.

------------------
Curumbor Elendil
jason.sorens@yale.edu
ICQ 56126989

	07-06-2000 02:52									#30
	Increase Your PM Length

http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000244.html
The first post of Ming covered most of the cheats. The NONE unit one is in 6.2).