16-03-2001 02:15									#1
	new to scenarios Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

having finally won on diety, im intersted in trying out scenarios.

Only won ive played is cam hill's "india training drill" (I have TOT )

Im wondering what scens you might suggest for someone might level, (able to win at diety, but only barely)

I have downloaded the civconverter, so you need not limit yourself to TOT scens.

I think i would prefer more empire building scens to combat ones that use the Civ engine as the basis for a wargame (nothing against wargames, just I would think there are tremendous disadvatages to using the civ engine, as opposed to say TOAW for one) But Im opened minded, and have heard the buzz that red front is the best scen out there (though i suspect too hard for me), so i wouldnt rule them out either.

TIA

Lord of the Mark

	16-03-2001 04:21									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I suggest that you go to the Scenario League page (link is at the bottom of this page) and look at reviews on scenarios. You can look at the reviews to decide whether you want to play before downloading the scenarios. In my opinion any scenario rated 20 and up are good.

Some people always give high quality products. Mr. Temba, Alex Mor, Captain Nemo, Harlan Thompson, Blackclove, Allard Hofelt, John Petroski are among the list. You can go to civilization scenario collection (link is also at the bottom) and download products of those people.

You can also try the OCC challenges from Paul's webpage.

	17-03-2001 20:04									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

try Celt and Iberians by Jesus Balsinde with one of the iberians or celt tribes

if you want one with total war then you have to play Justinian by Carl Fritz

also all the already recommended by Xin Yu

	18-03-2001 10:42									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Maybe i'll try celts and iberians.

I tend not to like (so far) the total war ones, and heres why.

In a standard war game (like TOAW for example) all of your own units are visible (as counters) and their attack-defense-movement factors are displayed. In civ you have to check the civilopedia or defense minister for factors, and you must open each city to see what units are there.

Now in a standard civ game this is not much of a problem. I start with my lone settler, (or 2 in deity) and by the time i have large numbers of cities and units, i pretty much now where everything is, having either built it there or moved it there. Also I know the factors for the units, having played civ2 numerous times.

In a scenario (I have tried Europe in Flames, 2194 days of war, and Artaxerxes) I start with large numbers of cities, large numbers of units, most hidden in my cities, and unfamiliar units. This makes it very difficult to quickly get an intuitive sense of where I stand and what my potential strategies are (contrast TOAW) It requires laboriously going through all the cities to figure out whats there. Even then by the time ive gotten to the last city ive forgotten what was in the first city. I would also contrast this to Age of empires scenarios, where the units are all familiar and all out in the open - the scen designers being limited to map amking, initial unit and building placement, and victory conditions, and intro material. Yet look what a Gordon Farrel can do with that!!! In the civ scenarios i have seen so far, I see very hard work, but most of it gone toward modification (both in art and in factors) of units. (as well as terrain, cities and maps) What tends to be lacking is documentation - historical background, clarification of victory conditions, and useful hints.

I do not blame this on the scen designers who clearly work very hard in art, gameplay design, and historical research. I think it has something to do with both the nature of the game, and the available design scen tools. I think it is clear that Bruce Shelly learned from the Civ experience in making the scen design tools for AOE, and one hopes that Firaxis in turn learns for Civ3.

Meanwhile i continue to look for a build and research oriented scenario that doest start me in the middle of a major war, and gives me a chance to learn my civ as it grows. I had high hoped for "seeds of greatness" but civconverter doesnt seem to know what to do with his tech tree thingie, and i cant get the converted scen to run.

So i'll try celts and iberians.

Lord of the Mark

	18-03-2001 00:13									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Lord, what is TOAW?

Reading your posts I am happy (an relieved) to find out that there are people who agrees with me!
A thread is currently running on the Spanish Civ Site about a similar subject. You'll probably enjoy "Of Celts and Iberians", but I think you could get more fun out of Al-Andalus (picking any of the Christian kingdoms). "Spanish Pride, Iberian Pride" might as well suit you, although that is actually a modpack. Just my two cents

	18-03-2001 04:54									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Lord: Ask and ye shall receive. The ToT version of Seeds of Greatness is now available on the Ancient Empires web site. The 3/17 News bulletin contains the links you need.

	18-03-2001 16:59									#11
	Tired of ads?

Another one I'm sure you will like is Slash & Burn, by Dan Scheltema, available at the Spanish Civ Site (misc section). Though a bit slow, that's my all time #1