29-11-2003 00:00									#1
	The Maya Civ Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

With all the talk about the agriculture trait and the advantages it gives you, I've been playing around with the Maya civ. I say playing around because I haven't gone beyond the Middle Ages in any game. I'm just trying to get a feel for them. It's true that the agriculture trait is nice but I find this a frustrating civ to play. The big problem is their UU (can't recall its name at the moment). It replaces the Archer and it's as expensive as a Swordsman, but nowhere near as powerful. Yes, it's nice that it can convert a certain percentage of its opponents to workers, but I haven't found it to be worth the cost. The upshot of all this is that it is much more difficult to have early wars. You are left with the option of using Warriors and with a few UU mixed in. That's just not enough bang for the buck for me. I was wondering how others feel.

	29-11-2003 00:22									#2
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I hate them.

Enslaving is all wonderful, 'cept they're not strong enough to kill anything other than barbs and warriors. Neither of which hang around more than a few years. So I'm stuck with a weak, useless UU that *may* give me workers I'd get anyway if I had a civ that had a UU that could conquer an AI town!

	29-11-2003 00:45									#3
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If they were easy to use then the unit would be too powerful. Its a good UU to uniquely boost a builder start.

	29-11-2003 02:27									#4
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The game I am playing at the moment is Mayan, and I purposly set the Barbarians to the highest level (Raging?) I am still in the middle of the middle ages but there is still a lot of unclaimed land that is creating a lot of barbs. Also the Big barb attacks generated by the Age change, that netted me about 12 free workers.

	29-11-2003 02:51									#5
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I also find the UU to be a problem. Can't use it or it will trigger a GA (other than barbs). Try to hold it off anf you have no archer units, which is not good now that they have bombardment.
Hard to get your GA trigger when you keep them out till late middle age or later, they can't beat anyone unless they are nearly dead.
This can be said about many of the new civs, I want to try out.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 29-11-2003 at 06:30

	29-11-2003 03:00									#6
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They're not designed to be used instead of Swordsmen - Use them as a supplement against barbs and weak/ened units.

It's true you can't use them like Swordsmen or other front-line units, but they're more a sort of support unit. Mix your armies between Swords, Horses and Javelins. Send in Horses and Swords to weaken/take out stronger units, then use the Javelins to mop up damaged and weak units.

	29-11-2003 04:49									#7
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But they look really cool.

	29-11-2003 06:45									#8
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I tried the Maya early when playin MP but have gone to other civs. Same with Inca. I prefer Celts on larger maps and Tecs on smaller ones (they are cheaper then Chasquis) This is of course when Sumeria is not available.

As Far as single player: Many of the Agr Civs UU's triger Despotic GA's, including Jav Throwers, Gallics, Chaquis, Jags, Mounted Warriors, and Enkidus. Though You can generally avoid it with the Inca and Aztecs (if you really want too, but then you have wasted your UU). The only Agr civ that doesnt is the Dutch. Unfortunately there are better overall traits then seafaring

As for best SP civs, Maya are good for 3 reasons. 1) Agr/Ind, enoguh said. 2) you can get a decent early units that doesnt require resources, as resources are more scarce, 3) that unit can generate slaves for you.

I havent tried India yet, but its UU also doesnt require resources, which might make it worth some more consideration.

	29-11-2003 20:29									#9
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I'm thinking that the Mayas really shouldn't be able to enslave barbs with their UUs, just humans simply because their traights (Agr + Industrail) are powerful enough without adding farming the barbs for free slaves.

	29-11-2003 23:57									#10
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the maya are a builder civ. flat out.

agricultural + industrial = food + production + roads = REX

the jav thrower is best used to farm barbs. find a camp, and fortify on some hills / mountains. tons of free workers.

barbarian workers can be added to cities, or used as slaves

as for actually warring with just the jav chuckers, it's possible but not advised. you can go for an archer rush, and you don't need to build the spearmen. so, instead of building 2 archers and 1 spear, you will just have 2 javs. you'll be short 3 or 4 hit points, but it's the same shields. the mayan chucker doesnt have the bombard, mind you, which sucks a lot.

anyway, if you want to try for an archer rush, it can work for you, especially if you hit early, and deny resources. i did it to a emperor AI last week (inca), and it worked wonderfully, because i kept the iron out of their hands

but, as i said initially, the maya are a builder civ. playing as a warmonger with a strong builder civ is quite interesting.

	30-11-2003 03:12									#11
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Love the maya, favorite new civ. The trait combo is outstanding. While the unit is expensive, the workers gained are a tremendous advantage. If I can capture say, 15-20 workers from 2 early wars (pre AD) and barb hunting, the added infra more than takes care of the early GA. Not to mention that they are free. Frankly, the few games I've played on Emperor using them have been romps, rex to say 10 cities, build up maybe 10-15 of these guys and then take out the nearest civ or two (or cripple them) they've netted me so many workers that I've taken to adding them to cities (for the republic support/wonder cities) much, much earlier than I used to.

	30-11-2003 21:52									#12
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quote: barbarian workers can be added to cities, or used as slaves

what nationality are they? how do they handle war weariness and food and such?

i may have to play the maya next

	30-11-2003 22:21									#13
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quote: Originally posted by pauli what nationality are they?

Barbarian.

quote: how do they handle war weariness and food and such?

They act like regular citizens except for their nationality is different from usual.

	01-12-2003 18:44									#14
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I tried to add barb workers to my cities and they constantly said "stop the agression vs our mother country". Do they EVER stop this complaining? It's not like you can sue barbs for peace!

	01-12-2003 18:49									#15
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quote: Originally posted by mimi I tried to add barb workers to my cities and they constantly said "stop the agression vs our mother country". Do they EVER stop this complaining? It's not like you can sue barbs for peace!

That's the rub, isn't it?

Why do you have to be barb hatin' mimi? Leave them alone.

	01-12-2003 20:32									#16
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel That's the rub, isn't it? Why do you have to be barb hatin' mimi? Leave them alone.

Well, worked out in the end 'cause I switched to commie and spent the rest of the game at war... barb members of my community shut the heck up then, or became new MA

(And I did try to stay at peace (demo) but my cities all started rioting and Rome wouldn't acknowledge my request for a chat to discuss peace options so I gave up and switched govts.)

	01-12-2003 21:04									#17
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quote: Originally posted by mimi I tried to add barb workers to my cities and they constantly said "stop the agression vs our mother country". Do they EVER stop this complaining? It's not like you can sue barbs for peace!

see, that's what i was afraid of...