29-11-2003 11:47									#61
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I just don't understand how people can spend their lives worrying about Coca-Cola and US Steel when governments, Right and Left, have shown a far superior ability to control, destroy, and kill than even the most rapacious and greedy corporation. Even more bizarre is how these people turn to government, despite its thousand(s) year history of brutality, to "save" them from the corporations.

	29-11-2003 11:50									#62
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quote: Before they came to power. The Nazis were bankrolled by corporations.

By some, but by no means all. To imply that corporations wholeheartedly and completely supported Nazism however, is a fanciful and wishful distrotion of the facts.

	29-11-2003 11:51									#63
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Democratic governments, whose mission is to care of the population rather than of the leaders, have millenia of history?

That's news to me.

If you want to confront the States St. Leo and every other liberal are talking about, with the Corporation, you have to pick democratic welfare States. Your millenia of history have strangely shrunk to a few decades...

	29-11-2003 11:51									#64
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I didn't say all.

	29-11-2003 11:54									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Democratic governments, whose mission is to care of the population rather than of the leaders, have millenia of history? That's news to me. If you want to confront the States St. Leo and every other liberal are talking about, with the Corporation, you have to pick democratic welfare States. Your millenia of history have strangely shrunk to a few decades...

Again you're putting words in my mouth. Is this common with you, Spiffor? A careful re-reading of my posts in this thread will reveal to you that never once did I mention the phrase "democratic."

However, if you wish to change the terms of the debate, please, go right ahead. It's 2:00am here and I'm hitting the sack.

	29-11-2003 11:59									#66
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: Before they came to power. The Nazis were bankrolled by corporations. By some, but by no means all. To imply that corporations wholeheartedly and completely supported Nazism however, is a fanciful and wishful distrotion of the facts.

It is true though that corporations when given a choice between National Socialism and a communist take over choice National Socialism as the Nazis weren't going to steal their property. If you had to choice between losing everything and possibly losing something or possibly gaining something which would you choice.

	29-11-2003 12:10									#67
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What communist takeover do you refer to? And you mean, if you had a choice between getting rid of those damned unionists in your corporation and not, which would you choose?

	29-11-2003 12:14									#68
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Again you're putting words in my mouth. Is this common with you, Spiffor? A careful re-reading of my posts in this thread will reveal to you that never once did I mention the phrase "democratic."

You're saying St. Leo permanently returns to Mom State despite the millenia of massacres done by the State. I believe St Leo's Mom State is not the murderous entity of the past, but the caring institutions of recent decades. He mentioned Bill of Rights, Constitutions, etc. himself. I don't remeber gaving seen such decorum in Ghegis Khan's empire.

You're the one who's making a moot point by jumping to the "state = potential despotism" trigger when St Leo so obviously speaks of modern democratic States.

	29-11-2003 12:15									#69
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quote: Taxes aren't my money in the first place.

This may be the most ridiculous statement I've ever seen on Apolyton. Congrats KH . By definition taxes are money that is taken from you and given to the government. It doesn't matter if it is necessary or not, it is still taken from you.

	29-11-2003 12:56									#70
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quote: One of the advantages of living here in Utah is that it is largely seperated from American maddness

Yeah, ya'll have your own, more concentrated form of madness.

	29-11-2003 13:41									#71
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An orderly madness as opposed to generally chaotic sprawling-everywhere madness

	29-11-2003 17:48									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Giving everyone guns is the best thing that could happen to the human species. The reason is all of the morons will shoot themselves and there will be fewer idiots in the gene pool.

Despite the fact that Suicide is prevalent amongst college students and teenagers more than other demographics...

Sounds good. But I wonder how you'd stop the Enigma_Novas of the world from killing everybody else off...

	29-11-2003 19:17									#73
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quote: You're the one who's making a moot point by jumping to the "state = potential despotism" trigger when St Leo so obviously speaks of modern democratic States.

OK, then can you prove that, say, the corporations of the US have killed more people than the US government? (waits for Che...)

When it comes to oppression, the modern "democratic" states are far less so than, say, Louis XIV, true. But to argue that they don't have blood on their hands is specious, and even the weakest of States (democratic or not) have powers far above and beyond even the worlds most powerful corporation - or else stuff like having a country with no true army to speak of, ala Saudi Arabia in the mid 1960's, nationalize their oil fields could never happen - Pinkertons or not.

	29-11-2003 21:01									#74
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Look I am guilty as the next, but lets kinda head back toward the thread topic..ugh..which is..

Peace

Grandpa-"Steppin-In-4-A-Moderator"-Troll

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	29-11-2003 21:19									#75
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Out of curiosity, don't the Swiss have compulsory gun ownership?

As far as I know they have a militia system for their armed forces, so the guys have the assault rifles, pistols etc. they use there at home. This of course goes only for small arms. AFAIK they don´t park their tanks in the garden

	29-11-2003 22:07									#76
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Then I don't see how this is the most stupid town in the world.

	29-11-2003 22:16									#77
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Then I don't see how this is the most stupid town in the world.

He has a point you know..but dont wanna pick on those whom made my favorite cheese

Peace

Grandpa Troll

	29-11-2003 22:47									#78
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT They're killing them by the millions in ovens? They're purposely starving them as to enforce an insane ideology?

Damn, John, you mean countries that haven't done that aren't actually countries?

Nice logic...

	29-11-2003 22:58									#79
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT When it comes to oppression, the modern "democratic" states are far less so than, say, Louis XIV, true. But to argue that they don't have blood on their hands is specious, and even the weakest of States (democratic or not) have powers far above and beyond even the worlds most powerful corporation - or else stuff like having a country with no true army to speak of, ala Saudi Arabia in the mid 1960's, nationalize their oil fields could never happen - Pinkertons or not.

Lets see. The Bhopal tragedy that occurred in 1984 killed thousands of people and mutilated a lot more. Even the second generation is affected. Supposedly this is an accident, but really the cause was gross negligence on Union Carbide's part. You say a company like that couldn't kill ten times more if it acts out of malice?

I see you are grossly underestimating what corporations are capable of.

	29-11-2003 23:15									#80
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quote: Lets see. The Bhopal tragedy that occurred in 1984 killed thousands of people and mutilated a lot more. Even the second generation is affected. Supposedly this is an accident, but really the cause was gross negligence on Union Carbide's part. You say a company like that couldn't kill ten times more if it acts out of malice?

Oddly enough, I'm talking real world events not hypotheticals involving applying a multiplier effect to actual tragedies.

But what the hell - I'll play. Let's say that Union Carbide did kill 25,000 people (iirc it was ~2,500 people whom died, 200k suffering medical problems of which 50k of them have long term problems). Given that this is the worst that a corporation can do (it is your example, after all, and to prove your point you did feel compelled to add a multiplier) in your opinion, how does this even compare to the carnage and destruction that the "Democratic" US of A caused in Vietnam or the French caused in Algeria?

Answer: it doesn't. Not by a long shot.

	29-11-2003 23:27									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Lets see. The Bhopal tragedy that occurred in 1984 killed thousands of people and mutilated a lot more. Even the second generation is affected. Supposedly this is an accident, but really the cause was gross negligence on Union Carbide's part. You say a company like that couldn't kill ten times more if it acts out of malice? I see you are grossly underestimating what corporations are capable of.

Urban Ranger you bring up a sad, but true point to ponder


I do work now with the W.R.Grace Company, thru admixtures in Ready Mix Concrete. They were involved in an incident in New England some years back, which involved illegal disposal of chemicals introduced into wells via the ground soaking up and being distributed thru an aquafere I suspose....

How many more companies did this and affected untold thousands via cancer or other undetermined sicknesses and illnesses?

Leukemia and many other forms that attack our systems..

Shame because a corporation could actually "settle" in a lawsuit while not admitting guilt or in any way contributing to any possible conections...and then simply close or seal the agreements.
Money is easier than admission to these giant corporations.


I am not the wealth of knowledge that many here are but I clearly remember growing up in the 60's and 70's and going to junkyards or even gas stations to see oil and other improperly disposed of lubricants and solvents simply dumped in the grass or dirt only to be soaked up and then ease their way into wells..

Shame it is for our children (us too) and many generations may be visited by potential problems associated with corporate attitudes of being "above-the-law"

Thats just my take on our world not taking ownership of dear mother earth and her children US what God created.

Peace
Grandpa "Not-a-member-of-Greenpeace"-Troll

	29-11-2003 23:29									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin So is the question who caused greater harm and evil; the corporations or the communist left?

Not all Left-wing is communist just like not all Right-wing is fascist. Just because commie idiots claim to be the ultimate representation of my ideas doesn't mean it's true.

I'm with:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

	29-11-2003 23:31									#83
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quote: How many more companies did this and affected untold thousands via cancer or other undetermined sicknesses and illnesses?

Find out, please, for I and others are kind of sick of these discussions sinking into hypotheticals while at the same time ignoring real world effects. UR can't even bring up Bhopal without saying "Imagine it was 10 times worse..." Hell, I don't have to imagine it was 10 times worse, that's not the friggin' point. The point is, in this world who has brought about more deaths, mutilations, and destruction: the worlds corporations or the worlds governments (democratic or otherwise)?

	29-11-2003 23:33									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Troll How many more companies did this and affected untold thousands via cancer or other undetermined sicknesses and illnesses?

At my last employer our bread and buter was enviromental clean up of old industrial areas. 90%+ of the time the company who caused the pollution had tried to dump the property rather then clean it up and it is only because some watch dog agency found the pollution that these companies were caught. Even so the amounts of money involved insured that even the guilty parties tied up things in court for years and years.

Still, most of the time they ended up having to pay to clean it up and we were the company that got hired to do the job.

	29-11-2003 23:34									#85
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Btw, sorry to 'jack your thread, Odeo.

	29-11-2003 23:35									#86
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by Oerdin So is the question who caused greater harm and evil; the corporations or the communist left? Not all Left-wing is communist just like not all Right-wing is fascist. Just because commie idiots claim to be the ultimate representation of my ideas doesn't mean it's true. I'm with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

You are right Leo there is a whole spectrum out there. I specified the communist portion of the left because they made the best illistration of what I was talking about.

	29-11-2003 23:37									#87
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quote: The point is, in this world who has brought about more deaths, mutilations, and destruction: the worlds corporations or the worlds governments (democratic or otherwise)?

Once again, given that corporations have so often controlled the actions of governments, you can't divorce the two.

	29-11-2003 23:41									#88
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I believe that's called "dissembling", Ramo. Continue and you will have a brilliant future in politics.

	29-11-2003 23:44									#89
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: How many more companies did this and affected untold thousands via cancer or other undetermined sicknesses and illnesses? Find out, please, for I and others are kind of sick of these discussions sinking into hypotheticals while at the same time ignoring real world effects. UR can't even bring up Bhopal without saying "Imagine it was 10 times worse..." Hell, I don't have to imagine it was 10 times worse, that's not the friggin' point. The point is, in this world who has brought about more deaths, mutilations, and destruction: the worlds corporations or the worlds governments (democratic or otherwise)?

Thats just too bad your sick of these "Hypothetical" talks for we may never know how bad these corporate decisions to improperly dispose of waste or byproducts turn out to be on mankind!

My point, while not clearing it through you, which I suspose I should have...

N O T!!!


was that we need to at least be aware of potential problems being created for generations to come, for the previous generations have not been doing a perfect job.

yes people have tried but alas not succeeded.

Now should we require all people in a town to arm themselves and store up an arsenal of ammo?

Absurd!

Do we have the right to bear arms and arm bears?



I am not against the right to bear arms and protect ones self..but a militia could turn into an armed mob very easily..wait..didnt we have these in the olden days..called "Lycnh Mobs" and "Vigilantes"?

Shame that we have resorted to this!

Peace

Grandpa "Not-living-up-to-nicname" Troll

	29-11-2003 23:45									#90
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Are you trying to tell me that corporations have never had any influence on actions of governments whatsoever?