29-11-2003 11:07									#1
	Demo Game #4 Preliminary Poll Tired of ads?

OK, let's try this out. Vote for no more than 2 options so we can decide some basic preferences.

A. Play with advanced units

This means we want to try out mechanized units, howitzers, armor, flight, etc.

B. Play with greater restrictions

Something even harsher than the last game. Maybe no Dips or no barracks. The details (specific additional restrictions) can be worked out later.

C. Play a previous game as a weak civ

Like taking the Russians in the last game, and struggling on from there. Again, the specific weak civ and time are for future debate.

D. Play as 1 city until a particular year

We could buid 1 city as best we can until some designated year and then cut loose on the world. Sometime between 1000BC and 1 AD might be good, but that's a detail for later.

E. Rotate governments

Maybe not every Oedo year, but some schedule might be an interesting challenge.

F. Set a fixed tax rate or limits on any part of tax rate

We could set a specific tax rate and just live with it forever. That might be interesting.

	29-11-2003 11:35									#2
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I voted for 1 city, rotating governments, but I suspect these are either or. I don't think rotating governments will be so much of a problem if we are a single city. So my vote means one or other of them plus some other restriction (but not any from the list).

RJM at Sleeper's (who probably hasn't got the hang of this voting lark)

	29-11-2003 16:46									#3
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I don't think we need more restrictions...just beter opposition...
So play with beter units...and an One city game as preliminary before we start playing democratic(1750 or 1900AD sounds good)...we need to give the AI a chance.

Shade

	29-11-2003 18:35									#4
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* Six Thousand Year Old Man shakes his head.

All these options are completely unnecessary. You want a challenge? Start on a tougher map. In the right (bad) location, none of the other stipulations are needed to create a challenge.

	01-12-2003 02:09									#5
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Hydey finds himself agreeing with Six Thousand Year Old Man.

	01-12-2003 03:54									#6
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We are too good at overcoming mere map difficulties. We just did that in this last game. What do you want us to do, start in a desert?

	01-12-2003 03:56									#7
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Something else; if we only have 4 voters, there probably won't be another game.

	01-12-2003 04:28									#8
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But having only 4 voters in what game we play doesn't mean that there are only 4 people interested in playing.

I haven't voted and none of the options above sounds like the exact right option for me, but I have no suggestions about what type of game to play, so I haven't yet offered alternatives.

I will happily participate in whatever we come up with however.

* Sparrowhawk

Edit: one additional thought, which relates to STYOM's point above...the Americans started near a river delta, and built up a sizable advantage...could we ensure that the other civs have a similar starting map when we start with a weaker spot?

Also, one of the keys to our victory in this last game (in my opinion) was Xinning when we were in Monarchy, unable to switch to a representative government yet without other options. Our tech rate was horrendous, and without Xinning to Fundie, we might still be battling the Greeks and Germans (and maybe we still are, are our President has not yet posted an end game ) Perhaps limiting or eliminating the use of Xinning should be one other consideration?

	01-12-2003 05:55									#9
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I am a 6th who has not yet voted.

I am still not sure what we should try now....

	01-12-2003 10:56									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Sparrowhawk Edit: one additional thought, which relates to STYOM's point above...the Americans started near a river delta, and built up a sizable advantage...could we ensure that the other civs have a similar starting map when we start with a weaker spot?

I've been playing with the map editor lately. I'd be happy to create a hellish map, stick us on a island or pole, and stick the AIs in nice river deltas or whatever (easy enough to do, as a scenario).

Also, I could remove any starting techs, and give the AI other advantages as desired. Want them all to start with 8 techs including Monarchy? Sure. Want them to all start with 6 Settlers? Do-able.

	01-12-2003 15:28									#11
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If you were going to set it up as a scenario (something I've been arguing for, but people don't like the idea that we get a free tech choice), then you should put the AI into Monarchy at the beginning of the game anyway. Just because they've got the tech doesn't mean that they'll bother to use it. We should impose Monarchy on them at the very start and will then probably see them shoot away from us, which seems to be what the majority want here.
I voted "more restrictions" just because this seemed closer to what I want than any of the others, but it's such a catch-all option that it could easily cover D, E and F as well. Wouldn't everyone having more advanced units just be a(nother) WWII scenario demo game?
I'm happy with STYOM's idea.

	01-12-2003 16:15									#12
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momentem builds behind STYOM

	01-12-2003 16:27									#13
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can i get in this game once started ?? been a long time but i think it should be fun

	01-12-2003 16:47									#14
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Should we have an election?

STYOM for Game planner! Anyone want to stand against him?
Apart from the usual that is.

Last edited by duke o' york on 01-12-2003 at 16:54

	01-12-2003 20:23									#15
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I'll do the game set-up if the group wants me to. I'm going to be away a lot the next 2 months, and busy at work the 2 months after that, so I wouldn't be able to participate in the early governments anyway.

Some thoughts on game parameters:

Map size: Giga? Giga maps make it easier to isolate us at the beginning (it's hard to be very far from land on a smaller map). They also give the AIs room to grow.

Land size and type: We had a lot of land in the last game which allowed us to ICS (yes, I know we weren't trying to ICS, but it seems to have turned out that way, with all the Advanced Tribes that came from huts).

More water and more rivers means more trade arrows and faster movement. More grassland means faster growth. Naturally, it could be arranged that the AI starts in river-rich lands and we start in an area that's more plains, with less rivers.

Starting AI techs: We can handicap ourselves by giving the AIs Monarchy and putting them in Monarchy. We could further handicap ourselves by giving each of them the techs for key early wonders (Lighthouse, Hanging Gardens).

Starting units: We could handicap ourselves by starting with one Settler instead of 2, and grant the AIs extra units (multiple Settlers, Horsemen).

etc...

Yes, the tech tree would be open but I believe the handicaps would more than offset this minor advantage.

	01-12-2003 23:35									#16
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Yet another citizen that has simply not voted yet. I would like to get some more ideas for the next game before we Poll.

	01-12-2003 23:38									#17
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how about if we restricted ourselves by having the luxrate always at it's max? (which means having democracy makes us crippling)
this would give us a disadvantage for the beginning, and kind of an interesting game, backgrounded by the thought of having the maximum of happy people.

definitly in the beginning we would be having a huge disadvantage compared to the AI.

it's just a proposal of mine, which could be used for even more restriction, because personally, i also like the idea of map-specific restrictions.

	02-12-2003 04:48									#18
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1. This poll was based on the suggestions that had arisen in discusion at that point. Specific new suggestions are welcome. There will be further polls as we narrow down our interests.

2. If STYOM is going to be away from the game for several months, them he would be a good candidate to create and even more difficult map. I had thought to seek someone to do so who was not part of our group and so would not be interested in playing, but if STYOM is willing, that's great, since he knows more about what we would want than a stranger would know.

3. I like the idea of a map of small islands in which our own would be isolated. Yet I also desire to play with more advanced units. These 2 ideas may be difficult to arange without deliberate map and civ editing.

	02-12-2003 12:14									#19
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quote: and maybe we still are, are our President has not yet posted an end game

Done.

Enjoy the posts and screenshots.

It took me over an hour to play each year, so I wanted to wait until I had a large enough block of time to finish off the whole kit'n'kaboodle.

	11-12-2003 15:08									#20
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Come on!
Can we not just start with something or other and ignore those who protest?