29-11-2003 20:21									#1
	Geography of the Ukraine Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well, help required by a Ukrainian or anyone else familiar with the geography of the area.

I'm putting the finishing touches to a map of lands around the city of Kiev. The source I'm working from indicates rough terrain along the west bank of the River Dneiper to the south of Kiev and in the Burkin bend between Rzichev and Kanev. The term 'rough' is vague and I was wondering if anyone had a better idea of what constitutes rough terrain in the Ukraine? Also, what is the main type of forestation in this area?

Thanks

	30-11-2003 05:00									#2
	Re: Geography of the Ukraine Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Caspian I'm putting the finishing touches to a map of lands around the city of Kiev. The source I'm working from indicates rough terrain along the west bank of the River Dneiper to the south of Kiev and in the Burkin bend between Rzichev and Kanev. The term 'rough' is vague and I was wondering if anyone had a better idea of what constitutes rough terrain in the Ukraine? Also, what is the main type of forestation in this area?

From photos I've seen, the Dneiper south of Kiev has extreamly steep banks.

In WW2 this turned the Soviet crossing of the river in 1944 (1943?) into a very big deal, comparible to the effort the western Allies put into crossing the Rhine in 1945. However, like the crossing of the Rhine, the operation was something of an anti-climax as the Germans simply lacked the strenght to defend the river line (and not for any want of trying either - Hitler considered the Dneiper to be a vital defencive barrier. However, work on the fixed defences was started too late, and the German Army was simply too weak to man long defencive lines).

	30-11-2003 07:52									#3
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Yes, that's almost right case. Certainly the soviets attempt to break out of the Burkin bridge head was stopped dead. Here is a little more info on this interesting but little known battle for anyone that is interested.

The Soviets launched their first summer offensive following the nazi defeat at Kursk and pushed them back behind the Dnieper. Von Manstein hoped to re-equip his units but the Soviets foiled his plan by gaining two bridge heads over the river. One to the north of Kiev at Lyutesh and the other to the south in the Burkin Bend. The Soviets then launched their winter offensive to capture Kiev and push westwards in an attempt to sever the link between the German Centre and Southern army groups. Von Manstein launched several counter attacks with the famous 48th panzer korps and almost recaptured Kiev. In the end neither side could claim victory but the Germans had won some breathing space as well as maintain a cohesive line. On the other hand the Soviets had secured their postions west of the Dneiper as well as focus Hitlers attention in the South when the real killer blow was actually being planed against Army group centre for the summer of 1944.

I guess you could call this battle one of Mansteins 'Lost Victories'. Utilising his own genius as well as the experience of his forces he averted a disaster and even regained limited initiative.

	30-11-2003 07:58									#4
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Ah, forgot to mention that to achieve the above the germans had to weaken other areas of their line and ended up losing Cherkasy further down the Dneiper. However, the Kiev situation was far more critical and would make for a more interesting scenario for civ2....don't you think?

[edit] sp

	30-11-2003 09:52									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Caspian Ah, forgot to mention that to achieve the above the germans had to weaken other areas of their line and ended up losing Cherkasy further down the Dneiper. However, the Kiev situation was far more critical and would make for a more interesting scenario for civ2....don't you think?

Yeah, the Battle for Kiev would make for a facinating scenario. From my (limited) understanding, both Hitler and Stalin took a great interest in the battle, with Hitler issuing one of his 'stand and die' orders and Stalin pressing the Soviet commanders to take the city by the aniversery of the revolution, regardless of casualties.