30-11-2003 17:37									#1
	How are you using TOW Infantry & Mobile SAMs? Get a bigger avatar today!

I was excited to see we now have anti-aircraft units to build. Can't wait to see how they work. But my questions are these:

Can you use both these new units defensively as replacements for mech infantry and jet fighters? Or do you need both? If so, why?

	30-11-2003 19:26									#2
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Mech infantery have still a higher defence and move 2. Jet fighters can shoot down enemy planes also attacking squares around it and not only if the enemy attacks the jet's square. Personally, I haven't been able to use these units yet

	30-11-2003 20:03									#3
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Yes, I see. Thanks, MoonWolf.

I'm playing a game now where I have no aluminun in my territory and so can't build jet fighters. (I'm not very keen on ordinary fighters -- they always seemed rather useless in the old games.) I'm hoping the mobile SAMs will do the trick. This did not prompt the original question, however.

	30-11-2003 21:16									#4
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I just finished a game where I built some flak and SAM's to see what they look like but never got to use them as the AI's didn't reach flight.

TOW infantry - the main advantage, unless you don't have the resources for MI, are that they are a foot unit and helicopters now carry 3 units. I needed to capture a few 2 or 3 city islands to get a domination win so rather than shipping over a stack of tanks and MI I built 3 4x marine armies to capture the coastal cities. I had helicopters loaded with TOW inf. ready to rebase in and unload so the infantry can fortify on the turn they arrive. Total overkill given the pathetic state of the AI military but a different way of doing things.

If invading another continent massed tanks/MA backed up by MI is still the way to go but for islands with coastal cities the army bonuses make marine armies very good. Helicoptering in TOW rather than unloading MI from transports doesn't make that much difference, mainly that helicopters move faster across the map. With transports reduced to carrying only 6 units and subs having stealth attack to pick them off this is possibly a safer way of garrisoning a captured city.

Lethal land bombard for bombers is a big difference. My carrier groups damaged most of the defenders but killed a rifleman and a couple of infantry outright.

	30-11-2003 21:19									#5
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My first game, monarch , all random, that's all my governors wanted to build. I Kept a few and disbanded the rest. I was never attacked where I was keeping them. The TOW I found useful fortified on hills. Having somethin to upgrade your guirilla,s to is nice.

Maybe in a defensive Island type game they will be useful. I am playing one now and will see. Not sure if I can win this one.

	30-11-2003 23:09									#6
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I managed to have a flak unit shot down an attacking bomber in one of my captured cities, but not much of an opportunity so far.
I was planning on using them to move with other units to defend on bombing runs, but they did not have many planes and that never occurred.
Actually I think the flak had upgraded, but I can't be sure now.

	01-12-2003 00:33									#7
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TOWs were intended as the "no resource" option that each era has - archer, longbow, rifle/guerilla, and ToW. The simple fact of the modern era is that if you don't have rubber, forget it - you're done. You can fight a perfectly even game and make no mistakes against an equal opponent all game, and find out that you were doomed from turn 1, because both rubber are near his capital. The idea was to have something that, with defenses working in concert, could turn back the "Modern Armor Steamroller" that would come.

In this case the fact that it was a "soldier" rather than a vehicle made it a heckuva raider too- dropping three on your opponent's vital resource via helicopter can turn into a serious pain. ToWs in a metropolis with civil defense and a radar outpost nearby can withstand bombardment by anything short of a stealth without too much trouble, unless the bombardment is in crazy high numbers - which you should have some AA around to deal with anyhow.

By the same token, oil is handy for bombers, but no single resource can be a gamebreaker if you lack it. With enough flak or Mobile SAM, you can turn back the tide of bombers, too - particularly if you have some TOWs standing guard over the AA units so they aren't physically bombed themselves.

If you have to, you can go on the offensive with ToWs supported by Mobile SAMs to handle defensive aircraft raids, but it doesn't work very well - which is pretty much what was intended. In rare cases when two parties lack tanks but both have bombers, you get to see some interesting mixed army duels of TOW, SAM, and Radar Artillery darting back and forth against the fixed positions and barricades either side has set up.

(Granted, this scenario is a lot less likely in SP, which is why I love MP...)

One of the biggest problems with Moderm MP was that a lack of resources meant doom, but now there are "fall back" plans for each missing resource...at least until the player with all the resources discovers what happens when you split an atom.

Then, well, you better either sabotage that Project, or head for the stars.

In regards to the final question "can you use both" I would say "depending on your style."

If I'm attacking my opponent with modern armor and I know he has bombers, my "main task force" will be Modern Armor and Mechanized Infantry.... but I'll either need Mobile SAMs cruising along with them or some workers to keep slapping down airfields so I can keep moving fighter-cover up. The ToWs could be useful to be dropped in by helicopter into interesting rear positions; something MA can't do. The increased range of air units makes for all kinds of changes - you have to really cover your ground troops against air harassment, and you can't just make a big front line and not worry about air drops.

(But, again - all this is rather MP-centric, since the AI will never bring a concerted, heavy defensive bombing campaign against your attack forces, and certainly won't ever drop 3 TOW on a critical mountaintop in your territory to raise a ruckus. If you want to see that...well... you'll have to check out that link in my sig. )

Last edited by Fried-Psitalon on 01-12-2003 at 00:46

	01-12-2003 03:15									#8
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yes, I agree it's all about the player's personal gameplay style. For my part, I don't find the TOW that useful BUT: 1- it's nice to see an alternate ''relatively good'' modern unit for those haven't all the required resources for the tanks ( especially many fledging AI );2- the guerillas can be upgraded to it, expanding their usefulness.

Now, I like very much the mobile SAM. In my last epic game, I built 25-30 of these dispatched equally in strategic fronts and cities. I've destroyed a LOT of AI bombers....neat.

	01-12-2003 20:38									#9
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I just wish I could survive long enough to get to use these new units.

	01-12-2003 23:55									#10
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Tows and sams.....too neat for words.

Just finished a full scale Modern war with three other major powers in my first Real epic game with conquests and WHAT a diffrence these units make.

My usual stratergy would be to pound them from the air then arch in with a stack of MA and finish them off.
They soon put the Kibosh on that idea.

They just wouldn't bloody die. They had TOWS every where and sams/flac on every resource. Granted they were losing as many planes as me to sams but at that stage in the game i have never before lost a bomber to anything but the odd lucky shot from a Fighter.

After a MAJOR battle resulted in the loss of about forty of my sixty MAs to combined bomber attacks and (Wait for it) the AI using ARTILLIARY (WTF) i suddenly realised that the old thinking needed to change.

With the AI for the first time gaining air superiority and my nation rioting like looneys (expecting a shock and Awe war i had remained a democracy) i mobilised (for the first time ever...) and started pouring out TOWS as they're cheaper than MI's and SAMS to take out their planes. They worked a treat and combined with a new facist gov i managed to halt the destruction and turn the tide.

I was finally signed a peace treaty after about twenty turns but had not managed anything but to capture one lousy border town (which flipped back a few turns later) but had been forced to PAY THE AI for peace. I did descover also that TOWS combined with helicopters now make rather nifty little "SAS" type units...drop them off on an enemy resouce and they spend all day and a whole bunch of units trying to shift you.

I reckon they've cracked it with these new units and made the modern era a time when wars are not just a one sided afair.

	02-12-2003 00:15									#11
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quote: After a MAJOR battle resulted in the loss of about forty of my sixty MAs to combined bomber attacks and (Wait for it) the AI using ARTILLIARY (WTF) i suddenly realised that the old thinking needed to change.

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to repeat

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