01-12-2003 04:46									#1
	Idea and Question Tired of ads?

I have looked at the map and decided that the time has come to followup on our victory over the knights. We could leave 5 riders in the Alamo+1musk and send the rest toward Barcelona and then up the coast.

There are 2 ways to do this
1) Have ND capture our 3 workers in the south and move them to the gap in the road, then we recapture them and rush build a road. Doing this our forces can attack any GS forces, this side of barcelona and the following turn be in Barcelona,New Madrid,and the GS coastal city.

2)We move our forces to the desert 2w of Barcelona. and then the following turn take Barcelona and the coastal city.

Now the big question, is it an exploit to use the workers in such a way. I don't want to do it if this is an exploit.

I like option 1 because we put a load of hurt on the GS forces in the south and can strike them(if any exist) before they hit us.

Of course an attack on Pamploma could also be successful now.

Aggie

	01-12-2003 05:25									#2
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Well, for one I would say the worker thing is an exploit. However, that has not stopped many events happening, such as GS-RP gifting cities, renaming of worker to "settler", etc.

now for the plan, how about we wait a couple turns until ND is healed, then we go south, and they attack Pamplona on the same turn? (or we could go south a turn before their attack and then attack on the same turn)

	01-12-2003 05:30									#3
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Let RP stew in Pampalona.
If we can do a world of hurt on GS, then you have my


Is it an exploit ???

In this case, I would say no.
We are using the game mechanics & turn order in our favour.
I have little doubt, RP & GS also use the turn order in their favour. (Hell, RP wanted to just hand over their game save to GS)

This certainly does not even come close to the long list of questionable tactics used by our enemies. Tactics that they still argue as valid.
- Can anyone say unit warp ?
- Or RP's threat of perpectual war & war weariness ?


So my vote is to do it !

	01-12-2003 05:34									#4
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Also ...
I will support any plan that gets GS troops OFF that saltpeter resource.

	01-12-2003 20:06									#5
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Go for it (#1 that is)

	01-12-2003 20:42									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel This certainly does not even come close to the long list of questionable tactics used by our enemies. Tactics that they still argue as valid.

The difference is that this exploit would have a very immediate and direct effect on the game. GS and RP have never used an exploit offensively and doing that now would probably end this war. GS and RP never used an exploit which could end the war in such a way.

	01-12-2003 21:21									#7
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No, but they prolonged it.....

	01-12-2003 23:32									#8
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quote: now for the plan, how about we wait a couple turns until ND is healed, then we go south, and they attack Pamplona on the same turn? (or we could go south a turn before their attack and then attack on the same turn)

If we do this as I proposed, (or even just delay our advance by a turn) we don't have to do the exploit which I would be happier with in the long run.

	02-12-2003 03:05									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Trip The difference is that this exploit would have a very immediate and direct effect on the game. GS and RP have never used an exploit offensively and doing that now would probably end this war. GS and RP never used an exploit which could end the war in such a way.

Are you saying that defensive exploits are OK ?
That only offensive exploits should be banned.

For me.. And exploit is an exploit.
GS in particular have admitted that "some of their tactics have been questionable." - Meaning they have abused the game mechanics more than just the one time we know about. (Unit warping)

I have made my position very clear on the public forum.
Against GS, the gloves are off. They have abused the mechanics of the game. In this war, against this team, we should be allowed to follow suit.

	02-12-2003 06:20									#10
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Do you want to use the infinite production bug? Or the load-another-team's-turn bug?

Yes, some bugs/exploits are worse than others based upon how they affect the game. Either you try to draw the line or you don't. I (obviously) cannot stop you from using this. But I would certainly be sickened if a team I was on did something like that to completely end the war on one front in a situation like this.

You've already won the war, why not just finish it off without using exploits.

And don't think I'm picking on GoW for what they do. If GS or ND or anyone else tried to do something of this magnitude then I would (and maybe have) told them the same thing.

	02-12-2003 06:34									#11
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Ok, no, I don't think we should use this. It clearly give us the ability to do two moves with a unit that was designed to only have one. I am against it, even though, as I stated, other exploits have been used against us.

Secondly, I'd like to give Trip some duct tape.

quote: Originally posted by Trip You've already won the war, why not just finish it off without using exploits.

Yes we are getting the impression that GS/RP is going down, and going down quicker turn by turn, but I don't think you should say so. Just my 2 cents.

	02-12-2003 07:00									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

Well for that comment, does anyone here not believe that we have the advantage (ie we will win) over RP-GS? I would just take that comment and move on.

I would say just don't do the exploit. 1 extra turn is not going to hurt us badly.

	02-12-2003 07:20									#13
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I vote against using the exploit. If we win by not using exploits on our opponents who have it just drives the point home.

	02-12-2003 07:30									#14
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I agree with everybody who is against using this exploit and it want be used. I just felt I would have been negligent if I didn't mention it in this game(where so much in the grey area has been done). I'd rather win honestly. Also I think I've established precedent for later, for dealing with such ideas.

Panzer's plan is good. We could move say 10 riders to cover the workers next turn and then build and move the following turn. We also have about 10+ Riders coming down, perhaps those could assist in the attack on pamploma or they could go east toward the coast, say toward Toledo.
Aggie

Last edited by Aggie on 02-12-2003 at 07:41

	02-12-2003 07:43									#15
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Known exploits used by GS/RP :

1. Unit warp exploit used GS & RP

Those extra catapults that RP got did influence our decisions on the attack on Pampalona.
They did save RP's ass when they retreated back to Pampalona
They did cause this war to go a lot longer than it should of.
It did cause us to "waste" our GA on more military than we had planned.
And GS still claim it to be a valid tactic on the public forum, because it "can be done in Single Player".
Which is cr@p...because you cant make the AI gift the cities back to you.

2. RP's threat of a perpetual war and war weariness upon us ?

Both of these exploits have had or have the potential to do us great harm.
Both of these exploits we have had to endure.


Against any other team, I would vote no.
Against these teams & and this war, I vote yes.

	02-12-2003 08:54									#16
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I vote no, since regardless of what any given civilization has done to harm us in the past, by using this exploit we stoop to their level. All the complaining (and rightfully so) that has been done about the exploits that GS has used will be deemed worthless when it is seen that we are not above doing the same things, things which will most likely have a greater impact on the game than any prior action taken by any other team.

I joined this game late, so I'm not aware of what exploits we may have used ourselves in the past, if any, but giving up our moral superiority on this issue, which I have no reason to doubt that we still command, would be a greater victory to our opponents, even though they will have lost the battle in game.

I know that from the start our team was conceived with the theme of warmongering, but this shouldn't influence our decisions in this way, since our roleplay as war mongerers should go only so far as what would be possible if we were infact "living the game". That is, we shouldn't let our status as war mongerers influence us in any way when it comes to issues of game design, or lack thereof.

Micaelis Rex

	02-12-2003 18:08									#17
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I think we should avoid the exploit.

However, I think we should have an Exploit DemoGame where the teams are allowed/expected to fully utilize all the exploits to their maximum advantage.

	02-12-2003 20:10									#18
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal Secondly, I'd like to give Trip some duct tape. quote: Originally posted by Trip You've already won the war, why not just finish it off without using exploits. Yes we are getting the impression that GS/RP is going down, and going down quicker turn by turn, but I don't think you should say so. Just my 2 cents.

I only said this based upon the fact that you destroyed 19 Knights recently and all that goes along with it. If you had lost 19 Riders while GS had only lost 5 Knights then I would say the reverse is true.

	03-12-2003 08:55									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

GS could be throwing the game. Several of their members have a rep for throwing the game if everything doesn't go optimum for them.

Me, I prefer to make the victor suffer as much as possible.........

	03-12-2003 11:05									#20
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Actually GF, I quite enjoyed chasing your settler in a galley.


(GoW PBEM #1 reference)

	03-12-2003 19:35									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Against any other team, I would vote no. Against these teams & and this war, I vote yes.

I fully agree with this.

They have not shown respect for the game, I will show no respect for them.

	04-12-2003 02:17									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Actually GF, I quite enjoyed chasing your settler in a galley. (GoW PBEM #1 reference)

I don't think Uber enjoyed my sinking his three ships and razing his two colonies to the ground as much though.

	04-12-2003 07:04									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hell no.

Just because GS has used exploits before is no reason for us to stoop to their level. If they have behaved in a manner whe dislike, we should not follow suit. Furthermore, ALL exploits done by both sides have been done before those exploits were made public. GS recognized that the unit warp could be seen as an exploit and said they would not do it again, I don't know if it has happened or not but they got the point, same with us with the workers.

No, no, no, and no, we can beat them honestly so why bother to use exploits just to shorten an already certain outcome?

	04-12-2003 09:49									#24
	Put an end to popups!

I was under the impression they just did it a few turns ago, helping RP reinforce Pamplona again.

	04-12-2003 10:28									#25
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Perhaps Trip could confirm that.

EDIT: Oh drat, he can't anymore...

	04-12-2003 17:11									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Perhaps Trip could confirm that. EDIT: Oh drat, he can't anymore...

	04-12-2003 18:00									#27
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GF - Trips laptop has fried....(He posted it in the ISDG.)
He can still access the internet, but not PTW.
(I think)


MZ - I have yet to see a GS announcement that they would not do it again.
The only posts I have seen, is them saying it was a valid tactic. "you can do it in SP, therefore you should be allowed to do it in MP"

	04-12-2003 18:31									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel "you can do it in SP, therefore you should be allowed to do it in MP"

WTF? I can load my SP saves in SP mode, does that mean I'm allowed to load the PTWDG saves in SP mode?