02-12-2003 05:33									#1
	370ad Get a bigger avatar today!

Save is here.

The knight stack near alamo has been eliminated, the stack Pamplona 22 is intact I think.

I haven't been real active lately, so this thread might be presumptuous. the latest vomit has ticked me off a bit




Military-I think we pull the Yk stack out via galley and send them south to garrison our remaining cities.

do we know what's still in pamplona?

	02-12-2003 05:35									#2
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Check out all the intel we can get from playing the game in conquests

	02-12-2003 05:40									#3
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Cool!! I didn't know you could do that!

Although it's, uh, er, depressing.

No matter... chin up, lads!!

(Thanks for starting the thread)

	02-12-2003 06:34									#4
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BUILD PHASE

Working from CH's plans in the Adam Smith thread, I've played through this phase, with some changes, having not left the city screen nor actually completed any builds.
______________________________

Monsoon : Completes galley in 370AD. 8spt, set to alley.
plan : galleys - west

OG : Will complete Galley next turn.
plan : galleys - west

Beta: Galley.
plan: Gift to RP? Timing?

Whirlwind : Finish this Galley, then set to Harbor.
plan : galleys - west , but needs harbour soon to grow

Sirocco: Cat.
plan: Same

Inchoff : Move wf from Inchoff7 (iron) to 9.Continue Courthouse (in 12t), then military - not a growth city yet.
plan : military - knights?

Inchon : Completes Spear in 370AD, uses hill vacated by Eliopolis for 3spt - start pike
plan : military defenders

Blizzard : galley, wf from Blizz-2 to Blizz-8
plan : galleys - east

Wind of Change : Galley in 3 turns, move wf from WoC7 to 63 (iron).
plan : galleys - east

Santa Ana : Pike, move wf from SA-6 to SA-87
plan - defenders

DAMN!! I got this far and it crashed.

	02-12-2003 06:39									#5
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I'm gonna have another go, but without staying in the city screens.

	02-12-2003 06:42									#6
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Jeez, it won;t even start... re-booting.

	02-12-2003 06:47									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Jeez, it won;t even start... re-booting.

sheesh

	02-12-2003 07:42									#8
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SHITE!! Crashed again!

I think I need to re-install the whole mess, using the C3C version of PTW. I'll do that tonight, and come home a bit early from work tomorrow... that'll provide CH an opportunity to comment as well.

	02-12-2003 19:14									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Footnote to other thread - someone mentioned that they can't have taken out 19 knights without heavy casulaties. On a forest (defence 3.75), they'd lose 12.7 knights on average in that attack - although they must have had more than 30 on hand to have a decent chance of taking down the whole stack.

And this is one of our basic problems. They can mass forces well. Any stack of ours with significantly less than 40 units is going to suffer badly from the stacked combat effect, as per here (and plenty of times previously). And by the time we get 40 units in a stack, they'll probably have even more to hit it with... We need very large stacks to break even in the knight loss category.

	02-12-2003 22:54									#10
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I'll be posting more comments here when I come to look at the save.

My first thought - we have two settlers heading SW on Bob - towards 'Fort Liberation' and the spices. Is it worth founding these cities or are they just going to get trashed? Now we are, ahem, significantly thinner on the ground, it looks tricky to be able to defend these cities and the high ground around them.

We could pull the six remaining knights near Pamp back to FL and probably defend that tile for now.

We have more knights in Stormia - no longer needed for eastern defense, and plenty from up north. In a few turns we can have 20 Knights in Spain again, and we'll know where the Saltpeter is.

	03-12-2003 00:18									#11
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Some workforce orders are being prepared for the MM in South Stormia ...

	03-12-2003 00:33									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus I'll be posting more comments here when I come to look at the save. My first thought - we have two settlers heading SW on Bob - towards 'Fort Liberation' and the spices. Is it worth founding these cities or are they just going to get trashed? Now we are, ahem, significantly thinner on the ground, it looks tricky to be able to defend these cities and the high ground around them. We could pull the six remaining knights near Pamp back to FL and probably defend that tile for now. We have more knights in Stormia - no longer needed for eastern defense, and plenty from up north. In a few turns we can have 20 Knights in Spain again, and we'll know where the Saltpeter is.

I think we need to just hold onto the settlers for now, would hate to waste them, especially if we need to give up land on bob to get out of war, would hate to just build them colonies. We can always use them later, or add them back to cities.

	03-12-2003 00:54									#13
	South Stormia MM Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Bolderburg : with mass city plantings in Spain now not on the cards, the settler now at BB and the one coming out of Typhoon can add to BB (to make it size 11), which can switch to a marketplace



Workforce allocation:

Cyclone : 77, 8, 1, 2,, 12
aim: for +5 food worker pump to build up commerce cities

Tornado : 77,4, 7, 8, 89, 1, 9, 2,3
aim: harbour and growth in 5 turns

Bolderburg: 4, 7, 8, 89, 9, 2, 3, 33, 36 (after adding settler)
aim: marketplace in 9, another settler coming for size 11. Should get chop in two turns

Typhoon: 4, 7, 8, 12, 3, 33
aim: settler in 2 turns for growing Bolderburg


Sufa: 47, 77, 4, 7, 11, 9
aim: aqua in 12, growth in 16

EotS: 41, 4, 7, 8, 11, 1, 9, 2, 3, 23, 33
aim: knight in 3 turns

2 workers by furs (Typhoon-33) mine the furs. Sufa needs that forest atm, so we don't want to chop it yet.

	03-12-2003 01:06									#14
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I think we need to just hold onto the settlers for now, would hate to waste them, especially if we need to give up land on bob to get out of war, would hate to just build them colonies. We can always use them later, or add them back to cities.

OK, what about workers? We have a few on Bob, and more on boats, but maybe we should be pillaging, not developing.

I think we probably all agree that we need to get Gunpowder and see where the SP is. If we've got none on Stormia, but some on Bob, it's worth holding and defending. Meanwhile, we have a few turns to see if GoW / and or ND want to talk serious peace, and in that time we don't build cities.

If we give RP their cities back now (they keep at least MT for now & we keep New Madrid) they can get the pikes going again, which is more than we can. Then it's worth our workers developing the Spanish cities. Militarily, we don't venture forward, but dig in.

	03-12-2003 01:16									#15
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I agree with the pull back and dig in. maybe we can hold out for awhile, maybe the longer we hold out, the more willing our enemies would be to talk. and maybe our holdings there have saltpeter.

	03-12-2003 01:41									#16
	Suggested Unit Movements Enter the AD-FREE zone

Here are suggested unit movements - nothing controversial here - except maybe the remaining knights - what to do with them and the other units around Barca.
___________

Stormia - Units North

North - general : shuffle and fortify on sea wall. This area is vunerable from GoW, so needs the wall - especially if RP is there.

6 Knights in Wittlich head south

Galleys in Wittlich go to collect stack of 10 on Bob.

Worker nr Santa Anna - join Santa Ana


Stormia - Units South

2 workers in WhirlWind - add to WW & OG?

Galley in OG to OG-7, pick up a knight, then 444

Galley in Monsoon to OG-7

Horse nr EotS to Tempest - upgrade?

Warriors at EotS-77 more 444

Pike at Sandstorm 444

Spear at Inchon move 877

Fortified WC's move north for sea-wall duty.

Bob - Units

Worker at pamp-99 - no idea - either mine pamp-96 , or move 22 then next turn start road on mkt south of pamp, or go east for a road new of toledo.

Galleys at Barca - they could go south to hunt and scout, or come back for shipping the northern knights over. We have six galleys on the Stormia-Bob ferry route atm - and three more coming within 5 turns. I reckon that's enough for that route, and we can send the barca galleys out scouting.

Settlers - back to Sirocco?

Galley with Settler at Sir-6 - back home?

Galley with workers - unload workers and return home, or return home with workers

Galleys in mid-route - 66

Galley at Tempest 6666 continue north

Other : 6 remaining Knights nr Alamo stay put or move 22, to be joined by others from around there. Slash can use the road and lookout from Barca-4441, still with movement.

	03-12-2003 02:27									#17
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The main reason we got slaughtered at Pamp1, I imagine, is the captured catapults. They probably bombarded the crap out of us and then hit us. Depending on just how many cats they have, their casualties could have been quite low.

I'm ok with going relatively passive militarily - further, I think we need to go with civilian builds on Stormia. Our "wall of units" can protect us from outright invasion for a long time. We *do* need east coast watchships, though, and mobile units in the center (near, say, Arashi) that can dash to either the east or west coast to block landings as needed. The north, IIRC, is covered.

-Arrian

	03-12-2003 02:29									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Oh, is using the F8 info from Conquests considered a-ok? I don't think the issue has even been discussed (and I fear such a discussion in the public forum).

Trip? What does the Eye think?

-Arrian

	03-12-2003 02:33									#19
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I suggest we give back Toledo and Barca to RP - so that they can (a) build Pikes and (b) piss GoW off by still being there.

We keep New Madrid for now- either building Pikes or a mkt/ch for a possible FP there ourselves. A mkt would also be transferable to RP. If there is SP in the area - we will want to stay, possibly as part of a deal with our foes.

In Stormia, we can suggest they could build / rush Pikes in The Voice and Harry's Hideout then gift them back to us to send the Pikes to Pamplona. That'd be another four Riders GoW need.

For those of us who'd like to cut RP loose and feed them to GoW, I'd say : if we want to do that we could have sold them down the river to GoW during negotiations and maybe got the deal to hit ND.

I outlined reasons for keeping them on another thread : Their conquistador, a GA, rent (which thay cannot refuse to pay, IMV), and a possible role later on on the game - maybe even a return to Spain. We just have to be straight with them and name our price.

They did what we asked with the GoW deal, even though there were doubts among us that they'd co-operate. I'm sure they recognise what we've already done for them. They've just seen 19 of our knights get zapped defending Pamplona.

	03-12-2003 02:38									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Oh, is using the F8 info from Conquests considered a-ok? I don't think the issue has even been discussed (and I fear such a discussion in the public forum). Trip? What does the Eye think? -Arrian

Indeed, I never even considered it a problem, but perhaps it is.

I propose that you, Arrian, who has stayed above the fray, broach the subject in the main forum.

And for that matter it should be raised in the ISDG as well.

	03-12-2003 02:38									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The main reason we got slaughtered at Pamp1, I imagine, is the captured catapults. -Arrian

GoW couldn't have got catapults there. The only way would be by road to Alamo-6, but then they'd still be there.

If it was ND knights - they could only have come over the lawn from Fort L and Zeri. If so they'd still be on Pamp-4 but RP haven't sent us screenies. On this of all turns! Also, Togas hasn't replied to my last PM and he usually does promptly- maybe he's not around atm.

	03-12-2003 02:49									#22
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Monsoon : has a harbor, and if set to aqueduct would complete aqueduct and grow to 7 in 13 turns.

Tempting, as we no longer need large fleets both north and south. A dummy fleet sailing around GoW's coast might be fun though.

	03-12-2003 02:52									#23
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Thread concerning Conquests F8 information posted in the public forum.

-Arrian

	03-12-2003 02:55									#24
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Thanks Arrian.

	03-12-2003 03:27									#25
	Suggested remainder / undecided moves Increase Your PM Length

As it's possible that Theseus won't get the game running on his PC, I've played (not sent) a turn according to the moves and city orders above. The following moves were either not covered above, or are changes to the above (only settlers - there's no cities to add settlers to yet on Stormia and we have a worker pump now).

If needs be, I can send this turn but I can't make it a late-night pressure number if my PC is needed to run the turn, so what I've documented is what we have if we want it.

_____________

Bob:

change: galley with settler unloads settler and moves to OG-77

galley with two workers enters sirocco, unloads workers and moves 666. workers irrigate New Madrid-6

worker at Pamp-77 to Pamp-633

change settlers nr Barca went to Barca-4

Knights at Barca-4 to Barca-411

Stormia:

remaining galleys at Wittlich join galley stack near YK

	03-12-2003 03:33									#26
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I hadn't hypothetically gifted any cities to RP, as there's been no discussion on it. Hopefully we can do this before next turn. I sent them a world map.

If I'm not around when Theseus gets online tonight, and the game is crashing for him, I can either send this one or play another one tommorow according to any orders posted here.

	03-12-2003 04:14									#27
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I'm still hanging on here, with 'ENTER or SPACEBAR for next turn' flashing at me.

I'm waiting because if anyone has any comments on our positions around Barca and Pamp, there are moves still available. The score is that we have :

6 knights and a pike on Pamp-22,
4 knights, 3 pikes, 3 MI and 3 cats on Barca-411
2 pikes and 1 MI on Barca-4411
2 pikes and an MI on Barca-441

2 of the knights on Barca--411 have moved 2/6 'road moves'.
Slash has used 2/3 road moves checking there's no stack our side of Merida.

Also there's the possibility of giving Barca and Toledo to RP - if anyone has comments on that.

	03-12-2003 04:24									#28
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Hang on CH... I just got home. Damn, it's COLD outside.

Lemme catch up for a few minutes.

	03-12-2003 04:29									#29
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'Evening, T

I knew it was worth hanging on for an hour while you made your way home.

	03-12-2003 04:41									#30
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I am fine with all of the above. Can we position the Settlers so that we can have 2 new cities built no later than 3 turns from now (if diplo is successful)?

How many Galleys are picking up the stack of 10 units in the north? We should detail 3 Galleys to scout the south.

I'd go for the Harbor in Monsoon.

Wait 1 turn re gifting the cities back... perhaps we can somehow incorporate that possibility / action into our diplo negotiations with both ND and GoW. Good call re having RP build Pikes in N. Stormia... we should do everything possible to see them built ASAP.

Anything else before sending it off?