02-12-2003 21:43									#1
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I have now finally gone into mid-term game. I have two questions.

One, I understand copters are better then needlejets for its multiple attack ability. Question is: Are needlejets useful at all? Seems to me sometimes I see it recommended to add air attack ability to a needlejet and make it an intercepter. Why isn't copter used in this case?

Second question: I understand in early stage alien artifacts are better used for SPs. In mid to late game after you get IA and crawlers and tech costs are high, would it be beneficial to link the artifacts to notes to get techs? Seems to me its usefulness in a SP diminishes when you get cash in crawlers but its usefulness in tech increases for you may need to spend many years for a new tech. The only bad thing is that you wouldn't be able to choose which tech you get and it may actually delay your beeline if it is not on your path.

	03-12-2003 00:04									#2
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First question:
After having attacked, a needlejet stays undefended during the turn of your opponents. A conventional needlejet would have to be equipped with very costly armour to survive an attack.
When you have an Interceptor (i. e. with SAM ability), it defends with its attack value. With a slight tech superiority, your opponent will lose at least one of their units to get yours. Any armour is useless -> don't build it.
Thus: Interceptors are much safer than Needlejets but don't attack ground units that well.

A Needlejet/Interceptor has a longer range for one turn than a Chopper. Therefore it is best used to take on your enemy far from your bases, or to stall the advance of your enemy by blocking crucial spots.

If your base is surrounded by several enemy noodles which just killed half of your garrison, a SAM Chopper is probably the better build.

Personally, I build Choppers for ground attack and Interceptors for air attack/defense. And don't forget the turn advantage you get for new bases by building the costly Needlejet Colony Pod.

Second question:
In my opinion the most crucial beeline is that to IA (and even to this I allow myself the deviations to try to get Formers/WP and HGP - Centauri Ecology is the very first thing I research). After that, I'd cash in the AA's - maybe not immediately. The thing is, that almost every tech finds itself on some beeline. And if you don't cash in an AA, you may speed one or two beelines but you stall many others. The thing is that when you link an AA, your next tech takes longer than if you didn't. But researching both takes longer. Maybe it is best to link a bunch of artifacts after completing a beeline and then to live with the delay, even if it doesn't look comfortably. Only, you already have perhaps got a couple of techs for the next goal.

	03-12-2003 00:05									#3
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Needlejets have only one advantage over copters: they can move twice without taking 30% damage for failing to land in a base or airbase square. This means they can use up all their moves without taking damage, whereas a copter cannot move more than a few spaces before attacking and still return to its original base that turn. This advantage does not even come close to comparing with the copter's multiple attacks per turn, but the thing is that your enemy will know this too, so he will send out copters instead of needlejets to attack you. Since there is little advantage to sending two copters to the same place, because of the multiple attacks per turn, he probably won't do that, so your interceptor unit has little to gain from having multiple attacks per turn, having only one specific target to deal with. So in this case you are better off taking the needlejets which won't have to rest to heal themselves as often. Plus using needlejets for interceptors gives you something to upgrade all those old missile needlejets that you built as soon as you got Doctrine: Air Power into. However, you can probably use SAM Choppers and never know the difference.

As for the Alien Artifact question, I'm still struggling with that myself. I have never used one to hurry a secret project. Maybe I ought to.

	03-12-2003 00:49									#4
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Choppers can be attacked by land units if they remain in the field.

NJ's can provide 'cover' for ground units preventing attacks by enemy ground units.

While it is not terribly cost effective, non SAM NJ's (or choppers, for that matter), can be armored to defend themselves against SAM/Interceptor (or in the case of Choppers, land or interceptor) attack.

SAM rovers come in pretty handy when fighting someone with a lot of attack NJ's.

SAM Artie is pretty effective against Locusts.

	03-12-2003 01:18									#5
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quote: Originally posted by johndmuller Choppers can be attacked by land units if they remain in the field. NJ's can provide 'cover' for ground units preventing attacks by enemy ground units. While it is not terribly cost effective, non SAM NJ's (or choppers, for that matter), can be armored to defend themselves against SAM/Interceptor (or in the case of Choppers, land or interceptor) attack. SAM rovers come in pretty handy when fighting someone with a lot of attack NJ's. SAM Artie is pretty effective against Locusts.

An excellent sysnopsis

I only want to stress more how ineffective it is to armour planes. Weapon strength is usually around double armour strength and without significant modifiers other modifiers it is just a lot of additional cost to mrely inflict a little damage on the attacker

Both interceptors and heli-interceptors have their uses but both of them are dead meat against a sam ground unit. Interceptors are often well used as aircover for a ground unit but honestly, attackers have an advantage whrn outside base and sensor effects.

	03-12-2003 08:06									#6
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quote: Originally posted by johndmuller Choppers can be attacked by land units if they remain in the field. NJ's can provide 'cover' for ground units preventing attacks by enemy ground units. While it is not terribly cost effective, non SAM NJ's (or choppers, for that matter), can be armored to defend themselves against SAM/Interceptor (or in the case of Choppers, land or interceptor) attack. SAM rovers come in pretty handy when fighting someone with a lot of attack NJ's. SAM Artie is pretty effective against Locusts.

And yet nothing protects units from self destructs (save a base square)

	03-12-2003 18:35									#7
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I'm Guessing that if you stack a NeedleJet with a bunch of ground units and designate it as the defender, your opponent will need a SAM unit or an interceptor to attack it before they can attack your ground units, right?

Also, if I understand weapons and armor correctly, an armored land unit (Without Pulse armor and Comm Jammers) will be outdone by an attacking enemy. Why, then, does anyone send armored units into combat?

	03-12-2003 20:39									#8
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I'm a little confused regarding the SAM land units and AAA land units. When defending against air units, isn't AAA the ability we need? Or is it SAM?

	03-12-2003 23:32									#9
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AAA defends against air attack . . .it doubles defense strength of a ground unit when attacked by an air unit

SAM is necessary to attack an airplane (not to attack a chopper)-- If you put SAM on a plane you create an interceptor which will attack regular planes against their armour value and other interceptors against their attack value. . . A SAM ground unit attacks ALL planes against their armour value

	03-12-2003 23:45									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova Also, if I understand weapons and armor correctly, an armored land unit (Without Pulse armor and Comm Jammers) will be outdone by an attacking enemy. Why, then, does anyone send armored units into combat?

Good question . .. The reality is that pretty much ANY unit is vulnerable to being killed in a 1 on 1 attack versus the right kind of unit . . But the trick is having the right kind of unit and getting to the right place to make the attack.


The defenders problem is that without sensor or base effects, attack value is always higher than available armour. This means that you need modifiers or special abilities just to get near to a unit that can survive an attack.

My armies of all eras are usually heavier on attackers than defenders . . . the theory is to kill their attack units rather than repulse their counterattack. My armoured units are generally meant to occupy bases where they might be more survivable.

Stacks are possible and I can conceive of stacks that have a good defender against every kind of attack but

1. Stacks are vulnerable to artillery fire
2. Self destructing units can cause you a LOT of damage

My bottom line is that it is usually better to be the attacker and defense is usually only feasible in base sites, or within your sensor net, or with a tech edge or with military superiority of a certain type (you aircover some ground units since you see he has no SAM units of any type-- or you AA armour some ground units, seeing that he has weak ground forces)

	03-12-2003 23:55									#11
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Just to follow up

I am not saying defense is futile. In fact attacking some empires with conventional forces is nearly futile since the modifiers of aerocomplexes and sensors make defense plausible and actually mean that the attacker would have to expend far more resources than they kill.

I'm thinking your typical attack 13 chopper going against a 4 armour AA inside an aerocomplex and with a sensor- Defense of 4 becomes 8 becomes 16 becomes 20-- I guess you can make an x chopper and get to an almost even shot of winning a given battle ( I assume morale effects are equal). BUt using nerve gas may or not be feasible if trade is a big part of your research and cash flows

	04-12-2003 04:06									#12
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So before air power comes in, I could have rover formers prepare kill zones to combat against an attacker

But what happens AFTER MMI?

A Helicopter could stay in its base and wipe out your invasion force as soon as it lands.
What do you do about that?

Pounding the enemy bases with Helis of your own is not so feasable until you actually have an airbase nearby.
Needlejets are costly to sent a mass wave against an enemy base, even with Interceptors stacked to defend them.

So do you send a decoy force to wipe out an enemy chopper?
Do you strike hard and fast to capture at least one base to use as an airbase?

Do you get your neato probe teams to infiltrate, find out where the choppers are and take the fight to them, possibly losing many jets and choppers to the base defenders?

Obviously your first strike would take out the sensor net, but then you'd need probes to disable the perim defenses.
You could transport them there with needlejet transports but they'd need a dropoff point.
So I guess you could build a needlejet colony pod and a needlejet transport, load the probes into the transport and use the new base as a dropoff point, then rush the probes into the enemy base and either disable the perims or mind control it directly.

But here you have the problem of an enemy interceptor counterattack.
You'd have to stack interceptors of your own to defend against such threats.

Then the Needlepod Proberush becomes a possibility.
Did I just invent a new strategy off the top of my head?
...

Somebody in this thread mentioned that an Aerospace complex is a + modifier. I've only ever heard of it upgrading the morale of units that its base produces, and quick repairing units.
Does it grant +morale for defending against air attacks or something?

	04-12-2003 05:23									#13
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Hi,

Just to put the answer to the needles vs choppers more clearly:

Choppers are a game-breaker in single player. If you want to win, build choppers and lots of them. IMHO, there are three game breaking concepts (not in any order):

1) Choppers (the ultimate offense and defense)
2) Drop Scouts (cheap and mobile)
3) Energy farms ($$$$).

Put them together (rush build choppers to storm cities, capture cities with drop scouts, upgrade drop scout to highest defense, rinse repeat), and transcend becomes, well, drone-ish(what's the name of the lowest level again ?

YMMV

--mm

	04-12-2003 07:34									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova A Helicopter could stay in its base and wipe out your invasion force as soon as it lands. What do you do about that?

Do not land an invasion force next to the base. In this era, any unit in the field is pretty much dead meat. Therefore, you only commit ground units if you can do it with decisive force, so you are assured of capturing the base and bringing your units to safety. Usually this means pounding the base with your own choppers, although marines can be used - they can attack the base from a ship until their moves are exhausted, then once you capture the base, you move the ship into it and thus get them to safety.

quote: Pounding the enemy bases with Helis of your own is not so feasable until you actually have an airbase nearby.

If you have no way of getting air units to your enemy, and he has them, an attack is generally futile. If you need to, build an airbase with a drop or chopper colony pod. Also, again the decisive force doctrine applies. Do not attack until you have enough choppers to take out all defenders, and let them have at least one move remaining so they can move into the base after it is captured.

quote: You could transport them there with needlejet transports but they'd need a dropoff point. So I guess you could build a needlejet colony pod and a needlejet transport, load the probes into the transport and use the new base as a dropoff point, then rush the probes into the enemy base and either disable the perims or mind control it directly.

IIRC, needlejet transports have a move of 4, so they are rather useless. Chopper transports can survive a bit longer, but still take a while to reach their destination. You can also drop the cargo anywhere by disbanding the transport over land, though I am not sure the cargo can move afterwards. (Ogie? Didn't you check this a while back?) Overall, cruiser probes or a boatload of probes would be a better bet, though you would need a lot of them for successful sabotage and mind control is often prohibitively expensive.

quote: Somebody in this thread mentioned that an Aerospace complex is a + modifier. I've only ever heard of it upgrading the morale of units that its base produces, and quick repairing units. Does it grant +morale for defending against air attacks or something?

It gives non-native units a +100% defence bonus against air attacks, and also protects the base and all squares within two of it from drop troops.

	04-12-2003 07:44									#15
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Odds and ends...

quote: Originally posted by sammy1339 Plus using needlejets for interceptors gives you something to upgrade all those old missile needlejets that you built as soon as you got Doctrine: Air Power into.

It is a while since I have played now, but I am pretty sure you cannot upgrade needlejets to interceptors or vice versa.

quote: Originally posted by Flubber I only want to stress more how ineffective it is to armour planes. Weapon strength is usually around double armour strength and without significant modifiers other modifiers it is just a lot of additional cost to mrely inflict a little damage on the attacker

...and interceptors get their attack value doubled when attacking bombers, just to add insult to injury.

quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova I'm Guessing that if you stack a NeedleJet with a bunch of ground units and designate it as the defender, your opponent will need a SAM unit or an interceptor to attack it before they can attack your ground units, right?

You do not need to designate it as the defender - its presence in the square is enough to prevent attack by non-SAM-equipped units. In fact, designating it as the defender will often be counterproductive, as otherwise, the strongest unit in the stack will defend - which will usually be a ground unit. A stack of a best-weapon interceptor and a best armour+AAA+ECM defender is extremely strong against conventional attack, though it remains vulnerable to nearby self-destructing units.

	04-12-2003 08:17									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Tau Ceti IIRC, needlejet transports have a move of 4, so they are rather useless. Chopper transports can survive a bit longer, but still take a while to reach their destination. You can also drop the cargo anywhere by disbanding the transport over land, though I am not sure the cargo can move afterwards. (Ogie? Didn't you check this a while back?) Overall, cruiser probes or a boatload of probes would be a better bet, though you would need a lot of them for successful sabotage and mind control is often prohibitively expensive.

Moves are IIRC (1/2 normal movement rate -1)

Fusion reactorair units aresomethinglike 5 or 6 a turn if elite. Having a tough time remembering what they are in SMAX but something tells meyou get the extra moves fromteh CBA as well. AS for the need to disband the units in order to get probe teams to move not so. There is a keyboard shortcut (control U ? ) that allows them to drop and move. Nowthe real issue thoughisto use a chopper to insert a probe team can be a sticky wicket. IF from a far disantce chances are it will be intercepted at its leisurely pace. But short distances it's great.Load a PT on a chopper/noodle transport unloading does not cause interceptors to scramble, there is no interference from air complexes prohibiting insertion, and likewise if a real military unit there is no 50% penalty for drop and attack on same turn. One other big downside is that air transports can hold only one unit.

	05-12-2003 03:30									#17
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Needlejet Transports are still great though. I use them to haul around colony pods, crawlers, and even formers. They are much better after fusion power, of course, as the +1 movement makes a big difference. But they are much more useful than you might think. You can't pump them out like choppers or supply crawlers and expect their effects to stack, but the first 5-10 are very helpful.