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alexman
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Hunt Valley, MD
Jan 1970
time: 00:32
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The Problem
Like Ground Bombardment, Naval Bombardment has also been changed in C3C to target units before city improvements and population. Like Walls against land units, Coastal fortresses provide a first line of defense for a city against naval units.
The problem is that except for the rare case of a combined ground assault with naval bombardment, or until the advent of Amphibious Warfare, cities are relatively safe from naval bombardment because units absorb the hits (but can’t get killed), which save the city improvements. There is little motivation to build Coastal Fortresses, which easily get destroyed anyway, especially with the C3C 50% increase of the bombard strength of Ironclads and Frigates (5 Frigate attacks will destroy a Coastal Fortresses 80% of the time, and 5 Ironclads will destroy it 94% of the time).
A secondary problem with naval bombardment is that the C3C AI prefers to bombard cities instead of resources, even when it doesn’t follow up with ground or amphibious attacks. The units bombarded by the AI heal in the next turn, often resulting in no damage suffered by the bombarded civilization (unless it was silly enough to build a coastal fortress in that city!).
Clearly, Coastal Fortresses do not currently serve their purpose of protecting a city from naval bombardment, especially since it’s so easy to avoid the shots from their ZOC. They are definitely the least often built city improvement in Civ3, even by the AI.
Possible Solution
Quadruple the naval bombardment defense of the Coastal Fortress from 8 to 32. A Frigate attack would then have just 9% chance to destroy it (5 of them would have a 36% chance), and an Ironclad would have a 16% chance (58% for 5 of them).
A stronger coastal fortress may also solve the naval targeting problem of the AI. Ideally, it may discourage attacks on cities, forcing the AI to instead bombard improvements as in PTW. (The AI already knows which cities have a coastal fortress, as evidenced by its ability to avoid ZOC shots). At the very least, stronger fortresses will encourage players to build them, so the AI will have finally something to destroy when bombarding cities!
There are at least two problems that need to be solved if this change is implemented. First of all, the AI needs to know to build coastal fortresses, otherwise it will not take advantage of its new strength (I don’t believe that the AI currently builds them, just as it doesn’t build walls). This is easily solved by giving it the ability to produce veteran units, for example. Harbors would also retain this ability, of course.
Secondly, coastal fortresses should probably lose some of their effectiveness in the modern age, at least against Battleships. This is a realism consideration so it shouldn’t be very important to the AU mod, but perhaps battleships should have their bombard strength increased from their current value of 8 (12?). On the other hand, if you imagine that coastal fortresses become modernized with time, maybe it’s not necessary to make them obsolete in the industrial age. They don’t get removed from the build queues after all, so we might as well extend their useful life.
So what do you think? Is a change necessary? Is the proposed increase in bombard defense too much? All input is welcome!
Last edited by alexman on 03-12-2003 at 04:11
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Fosse
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U.S.A.
Mar 2002
time: 23:32
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This sounds good to me. What would sound better would be if the AI built walls more often.
After the AU mod added Walls to the Great Wall, the civ that built it became a much more difficult for me to absorb.
Of course, this is the naval bombard thread, so.... MORE EFFECTIVE COASTAL FORTRESSES!
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Risa
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AI do build walls and coastal fortress, if they have enough time, just like what human do.
I like these changes, including raising bombard strength of battleship to 12, too.
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Risa
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There may be a problem: If coastal fortress will drive AI to bombard surrounding tiles, why player would build it?
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alexman
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Hunt Valley, MD
Jan 1970
time: 00:32
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[Edit: removed the call for a panel vote, as we now have a new proposal on the table for discussion - see my next post]
Last edited by alexman on 05-12-2003 at 23:32
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alexman
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Hunt Valley, MD
Jan 1970
time: 00:32
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I just did some tests.
Unfortunately, the AI doesn't consider the strength (or even the presence) of a Coastal Fortress when it selects its target.
By the way, AI target selection is weird, to say the least: the first targets are cities with ships, then cities or tiles with Workers, then defended cities, and then cities or tiles with bombard units (!). Resources are never targeted unless they are under something else (like a worker or catapult). If you leave your cities undefended, the AI will not bombard them. If you have a unit (even a worker) in your city, the AI will continue to bombard even after the unit has no HP remaining to destroy, so improvements and population will be destroyed.
Going back to the Coastal Fortress, if we increase its bombard defense, the only reason to build it would be when the AI has amphibious capabilities. If the AI doesn't have Marines (or Berzerks) it's best to just leave your cities undefended.
Now if the AI had Amphibious capabilities in the Middle Ages, things would become much more interesting. The human would be forced to defend his cities, and the AI would have a valid reason for targeting units in cities (which it already does).
So what if we give Medieval Infantry Amphibious capabilities? I know this is a big change for the AU mod, but it would make things much more interesting in terms of strategy, and it would help the AI, which defends its coastal cities anyway.
The cost of Medieval Infantry would probably need to be increased (or the cost of Berzerks reduced) so that the Vikings retain their advantage.
Last edited by alexman on 05-12-2003 at 23:04
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Catt
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California - SF Bay Area
May 2002
time: 21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by alexman
By the way, AI target selection is weird, to say the least: the first targets are cities with ships, then cities or tiles with Workers, then defended cities, and then cities or tiles with bombard units (!). Resources are never targeted unless they are under something else (like a worker or catapult). |
Yes, I've seen this in epic games -- it is really frustrating. An AI had marines which meant I was protecting my coastal cities. I left resources totally uncovered -- several sole-source luxuries or strategics were within range, but never targeted until (i) an arty took position in the tile to bombard a naval unit, or (ii) workers entered the tile to clean pollution, and then the tile was bombarded to craters.
I absolutely refuse to place 0 A/D units on resources just to induce an attack by the AI, but watching ships and planes bombard cities defended with infantry or mech infantry (without a follow-up amphib invasion) instead of a nearby single source, unguarded rubber, oil, or luxury is maddening to no end, especially since a barracks in the city means the units are healthy next turn.
Firaxis / Breakaway / Atari - fix bombardment please! 
Catt 
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Catt
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California - SF Bay Area
May 2002
time: 21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by alexman
It makes them harder to get destroyed by naval bombardment. You need to kill a CF before being able to damage anything else in that city (units, population, or improvements) with a ship. |
Sorry for my brevity with the question 
What does it do (or is it expected to do) with respect to gameplay? I thought that, absent changes by Firaxis to naval bombardment targeting, it will only ever make sense for a human to build one if (i) the AI has amphib abilities and the fear of those amphib abilities induces the human to put defenders in a coastal city; and (ii) the fear induces a human to put a only one (maybe two) defenders in place, meaning a concerted AI bombardment attack against a city might eventually get to the underlying city improvements. WRT the AI, it either will induce the AI to build them more often (is this good?) or it will have no effect on the AI's decision to build them.
IOW, absent a Firaxis tweak to the bombardment targeting algorithms, does making a change to the CF have any expected gameplay changes, and are the expected gameplay changes positive? Based on the panel votes, I assume the answer is "yes" to both questions, but I'm just not divining the specifics from the thread.
Catt
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alexman
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Hunt Valley, MD
Jan 1970
time: 00:32
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Catt, you are correct in what you say above: if the human leaves his coastal cities empty, the AI won't bombard his cities, so there is no reason to build a CF.
There is now a reason, however, to build a CF, if the city is not empty. For example, if the AI is the Vikings, or if he has Marines, or if you need to garrison your city for military police, or if the coastal city is close to the border with the AI so you fear a ground sneak attack...
Previously, there was no reason to build a CF because it would get destroyed so easily when bombarded.
Edit: with respect to the AI, it's not clear whether the change will induce it to build CFs more often. I doubt it, but if it does, I think the AI will benefit. AI city improvements will be better protected from bombardment (especially from AI bombardment, since AI cities are defended, so they are targets of other AI bombardment).
Last edited by alexman on 13-12-2003 at 02:05
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Catt
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California - SF Bay Area
May 2002
time: 21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by alexman
Catt, you are correct in what you say above: if the human leaves his coastal cities empty, the AI won't bombard his cities, so there is no reason to build a CF.
There is now a reason, however, to build a CF, if the city is not empty. For example, if the AI is the Vikings, or if he has Marines, or if you need to garrison your city for MP reasons, or if the coastal city is close to the border with the AI so you fear a ground sneak attack...
Previously, there was no reason to build a CF because it would get destroyed so easily when bombarded. |
Thanks!
Catt
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03-12-2003 04:04
It would make it actually worth to build, well, at least in some cities.
This may be one of the tougher problems to iron out, as I can see few solutions that would both benefit the AI and not give the human player more advantages...
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