04-12-2003 04:11									#31
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If this is true, and I think it is. It's also true that globalization could reverse, because the US is becoming the loser in free trade.

	04-12-2003 04:18									#32
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I simply pointed out the best way to understand reality in this current question. I didn't mean "embrace it"

	04-12-2003 04:28									#33
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There's no world but the real world for me.

	04-12-2003 04:31									#34
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For all of us. However realities can be changed, assuming we have understood them

	04-12-2003 04:35									#35
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 For all of us. However realities can be changed, assuming we have understood them

As John Miller has stated though, each nation acts in its own national interest, not in an international interest. That is the reality. How can we change that.

	04-12-2003 04:39									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious As John Miller has stated though, each nation acts in its own national interest, not in an international interest. That is the reality. How can we change that.

I'm sure there are ways if we put our heads to work on it. For the cynics a simple realization that the well being of others is your own well being and there are unfortunately concrete facts for that would perhaps sway them. But ultimately I'm sure there are ways. The first step is to actually understand what the heck is going on.

	04-12-2003 04:45									#37
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why should my country act in a way that is not for my (and my fellow citizens) best interest?

if it did not act in my best interest, it would be a pretty shitty country and I would leave

I agreed to take part in this whole nation thing because it acts in my (and my fellow citizens) best interest

it would be pretty sucky to me, if my country did otherwise (and as I said, it would quit being my country)

Jon Miller

	04-12-2003 04:47									#38
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I'm sure there are ways if we put our heads to work on it. For the cynics a simple realization that the well being of others is your own well being and there are unfortunately concrete facts for that would perhaps sway them. But ultimately I'm sure there are ways. The first step is to actually understand what the heck is going on.

But if anything has been demostrated by this thread it is that no nation has ever acted in such a way. The only nations who have advocated free trade are those who gain a net benefit from it, and even those have practiced protectionism in industries that they don't have a comparative advantage in.

A better way for everyone can only become reality after the current power structure is completely destroyed.

	04-12-2003 04:48									#39
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Jon Miller,
Don't know. Perhaps it's not acting in your and your fellow citizens interests. Not only yours of course. Anyway some things are better left to be realized I think, if they are meant to be.

	04-12-2003 04:54									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious But if anything has been demostrated by this thread it is that no nation has ever acted in such a way. The only nations who have advocated free trade are those who gain a net benefit from it, and even those have practiced protectionism in industries that they don't have a comparative advantage in. A better way for everyone can only become reality after the current power structure is completely destroyed.

I'm not so sure about that. Free markets, or better, regulated free markets (yes there is no contradiction in that) have proven to be able to bring the food to the table so to speak. So there are some good points that can be kept. But I think that a lot of other things would "have" to be changed.

	04-12-2003 04:58									#41
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I agree that my nation does not always act in my nor my fellow citizens best interest

one of the ways that they do so is by listening to people like you and kid (the biggest way, of course, is when they listen to multinationals and corporations)

I mean, it is like if I said that there were poor people startving in DC, so people in greece should ahve 100% tax increase to pay to feed the startving people in DC

Jon Miller

	04-12-2003 05:01									#42
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I'm not so sure about that. Free markets, or better, regulated free markets (yes there is no contradiction in that) have proven to be able to bring the food to the table so to speak. So there are some good points that can be kept. But I think that a lot of other things would "have" to be changed.

Of course food should be exported to Africa and such, but I'm talking about the expoitive nature and inefficiencies of the system that are cause by greed.

	04-12-2003 05:13									#43
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Kidicious,
I'm talking about the free markets ability to spur up production. The case where this can has been done without free markets inflicting a new kind of poverty to the non haves is manifested in many countries which have regulated free markets. So I wouldn't advocate the eradication of the regulated free markets since they have proven to be a system which "provides the food on the table" = has results in productivity without condemning large portions of society to this new kind of poverty (like people without national medical care all the way down to the homeless)
As for the people starving in one place and taxes being increased in another that's a part of an idea on the right track IMO but obvisouly of course is not all inclusive and is neither the beggining or end of anything. But a radical way by which "nations" define their interests is "needed". It can happen or not, with all the consequences this entails. Obviously time will show.

	04-12-2003 05:16									#44
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Kidicious, I'm talking about the free markets ability to spur up production. The case where this can be done without free markets inflicting a new kind of poverty to the non haves is manifested in many countries with regulated free markets. So I wouldn't advocate the eradication of the regulated free markets since they have proven to be a system which "provides the food on the table" = has results in productivity withotu condemning large portions of society to this new kind of poverty.

How are the markets suppose to be regulated efficiently when self-interest is involved?

	04-12-2003 05:19									#45
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There are many cases in many many countries where this is the case. Where you simply "harvest" the dynamism of self interest but don't let it rule you or your country. Or at least that's what sought and in many cases accomplished. However this is only the very very beggining IMO.

	04-12-2003 05:31									#46
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 There are many cases in many many countries where this is the case. Where you simply "harvest" the dynamism of self interest but don't let it rule you or your country. Or at least that's what sought and in many cases accomplished. However this is only the very very beggining IMO.

In the case of globalization you have to let self-interest rule. That's the only way you can make your workers work for that lower wage that allows you to compete in the global market place. Look all over the world. Workers are losing their jobs, wages and benefits in the name of global competativeness.

	04-12-2003 05:44									#47
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Globalization was just a try to push an unregulated free markets policy everywhere on the planet. However nothing is written in stone so to speak. And many unexpected winners emerge from this and some rather unexpected losers. But as I said nothing is written in stone. We'll see.

	04-12-2003 05:50									#48
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Globalization is just a try to push an unregulated free markets policy everywhere on the planet. However nothing is written in stone so to speak. And many unexpected winners emerge from this and some rather unexpected losers. But as I said nothing is written in stone. We'll see.

Labor in this country has worked hard to get where we are now. Globalization will eventually destroy all of that. There is no labor regulation for us in the global market place. We simply have to compete with the lowest bidder.

	04-12-2003 08:39									#49
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American industry really took off with the election of the Republican party in 1861. A lot of this had to do with the factories that were built to supply war production. But it also had a lot to do with the building of the intercontinental RR and of the spreading the telegraph virtually everywhere. I am unfamiliar with the tarriffs imposed by the Republican administration at that time. But I my gut reaction to tarriffs is that they always cause more harm to the economy as a whole than the particular beneficiaries of the tarriffs.

Since WWII, both American political parties seem to share the opinion that free trade leads to prosperity. But, as others have observed here, the US at that time was the predominate industrial power in the world - again due to war production and investments.

	04-12-2003 21:33									#50
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I think tarrifs were lower then under the Jackson administration at that point, but Lincoln believed in tarrifs.

	04-12-2003 21:58									#51
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The tariffs in the initial part of the Jackson administration (the "tariffs of abominations")/latter part of the JQ Adams administration didn't actually have broad political support. Jackson actually introduced the law during JQ Adam's presidency, to tank his political career (which was quite successful - look at how he's still commonly thought of as one of our worst Presidents). Basically they were designed to pressure him into either alienating his already shaky constitutency in the North or royally pissing off the South (and it almost lead to Civil War). Those tariff rates didn't last more than a few years.

Lincoln was a definitely a tariff man. The Morrill Tariff passed shortly after the initial round of secession raised duties it to extremely high rates.

	05-12-2003 00:13									#52
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AFAIK, tariffs in USA were raised during the American Civil War for the purpose of raising money for the war.

First act of the Congress was to raise taxes also for the purpose of funding the government.

Everything in between that first tariff and ACW, and afterwards, was for the purpose of protecting domestic industries. Also, the trend during the whole period was to increase tariffs, with some shorter periods of decreasing them.

USA came out of WW II with 35% of all production power (correct phrase?) in the world (Kissinger). That strong position contributed to the free trade attitude USA adopted and is pursuing since then (with minor bumps).



So, following the example of Britain, USA, Germany and other industrial countries, it seems it would make sense for developing countries to practice a significant protection of their domestic markets.

However, this is not happening. How come?

Another interesting thing is that WTO, an organization solely dedicated to lowering the international barriers for trade, is a voluntary organization. Countries are not forced to join. Yet almost all countries in the world are members. Why are the countries that struggle with their weak industries opening to the world?

Also, a good point raised in this thread is how long is this all going to last. WTO rules still don't include any regulation of labour standards or ecology and that means countries without those are competing unfairly.

	05-12-2003 00:44									#53
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in the long term a nation can only benefit from total free-trade, because it creates cheeper, higher quality goods and weens out the inefficiant buisnesses in the country. It also makes the ones that survive inmitially much more competative overseas.