04-12-2003 02:53									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So disrupting Israeli commerce and making the situation unbearable for business would be the most effective way to bring real pressure on the government to resolve the issue quickly. War is bad for (most) business.

OK, so when the terrorists plan to target school children that puts immense pressure on the bussiness's. I guess you can just call that fiscally irresponsible or maybe fiscal collateral damage. I don't know how much that means to mother looking at her 3 year old ripped in half, but I am sure you have a political correct answer for that.

	04-12-2003 02:55									#32
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark What are the Israeli actions that cause the misery - primarily check points, limits on work in Israel. Which are directly related to security.

When it takes up to hours to get through a check point, hours of employment get decreased. Some are denied access and not able to work at all.

The bulldozing of homes is an obvious one. (some is justified, but they do seem to be over zelous at times.

The wall is seperating people from the jobs.

Curfews and limited access or delayed access for emergency vehicles is a hardship.

Land confiscated for building new settlements.

The distribution of resources, water power has been restricted at times.

Colateral Damage on IDF strikes.

The list goes on and on.

	04-12-2003 02:58									#33
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Yet war is very beneficial to any given army's budgets and standing and the interntional arms industries. Also Israel gets the highest financial aid from the US. 10 bil. dollars was the latest IIRC so it has other sources of income as well.

Israels army would much rather be spending on weaponry to counter possible threats from Iran, not primarily personnel cost for patrols in the territories. A number of Israeli ex-military officials have criticed Sharon, and I think most of those who havent would still like to minimize costs.

Re Arms industy - Israels arms industry is prospering from sales abroad, to India and China among others. Patrols in the territories dont help them much.

Re aid - they get $3 billion a year, not $10 billion. The same amount theyve gotten for the last 23 years, gradually diminishing in real value.

The Israeli economy is much more reliant on trade, primarily in civilian high technology than aid. Az?

	04-12-2003 02:58									#34
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark It already is. The post that israel has no incentive for peace was totally incorrect.

I agree saying there isn't an incentive is correct, but I disagree with fiscal disruption is already the focus of dissidents. This is clearly not the case, as the bombing targets show. They're out for emotional targets that hit people in the heart. This only makes people angry and more stubbornly resolute.

If the hit was primarily to the pocket book, things would be different. Instead of bombing people, bomb roads, rails and other transport networks. Hit power stations and communications networks. Having squads running around creating havoc in this regard would avoid the negative press for the Palestinians killing people while serving to make the Israeli citizen (and, more importantly, corporations) eager for a peaceful resolution.

	04-12-2003 03:00									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant OK, so when the terrorists plan to target school children that puts immense pressure on the bussiness's. I guess you can just call that fiscally irresponsible or maybe fiscal collateral damage. I don't know how much that means to mother looking at her 3 year old ripped in half, but I am sure you have a political correct answer for that.

I don't think you have any comprehension of what I said. Please reread.

	04-12-2003 03:01									#36
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Actually the latest aid is 10 billion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2867619.stm

	04-12-2003 03:03									#37
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The confirmation is here.


U.S. administration approves US$10 billion in guarantees, aid to Israel
Thu Mar 20, 7:06 AM ET

By LAURIE COPANS, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - The Bush Administration has approved US$9 billion in loan guarantees and US$1 billion in special military assistance to Israel, Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu (news - web sites)'s office said Thursday. The decision was condemned by the Palestinian Authority (news - web sites).



In Washington, a senior official said the aid request would go to Congress, which must still approve it, in a few days. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, would not discuss amounts. Israeli media said approval was expected.


Israel had requested $8 billion in loan guarantees and $4 billion in aid to offset the costs of conflict with the Palestinians and preparations for a feared attack by Iraq (news - web sites) in response to the U.S. campaign against it. In the first Gulf War (news - web sites) Iraq hit Israel with 39 missiles, causing heavy damage but few casualties.


Israel, already the largest recipient of U.S. aid, receives US$2.7 billion in U.S. aid — US$2.1 billion in military aid and US$600 million in economic aid.


Palestinian Information Minister Yasser Abed Rabbo said that "the Palestinian Authority condemns the U.S. decision to grant Israel loan guarantees at this particular time, because we think that Israel will use this money to continue its settlement policy and its terrorist acts against the Palestinian people."


In almost 30 months of violence, 2,225 people have been killed on the Palestinian side and 753 on the Israeli side. Palestinians fear Israel might exploit the Iraq war to ratchet up military strikes, while Israel fears militant groups could increase terror attacks in a show of support for Iraq.


Netanyahu's office said U.S. National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites) called Netanyahu Wednesday to inform him of the decision. She told him the administration decided to give Israel US$1 billion more in loan guarantees than requested because it was impressed with his recently unveiled economic plan, the statement said. The plan slashes budgets and entitlements but also promises to reduce income tax.


Netanyahu asked Rice to transfer the military assistance as soon as possible, his office said.

	04-12-2003 03:05									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant I don't know how much that means to mother looking at her 3 year old ripped in half, but I am sure you have a political correct answer for that.

Why is it that people like you have all this compassion for the children of one side, but the far more likely to be killed children of the other side aren't worth mentioning? More Palestinian children die than Israeli children.

	04-12-2003 03:24									#39
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 The confirmation is here. U.S. administration approves US$10 billion in guarantees, aid to Israel Thu Mar 20, 7:06 AM ET By LAURIE COPANS, Associated Press Writer JERUSALEM - The Bush Administration has approved US$9 billion in loan guarantees and US$1 billion in special military assistance to Israel, Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu (news - web sites)'s office said Thursday. The decision was condemned by the Palestinian Authority (news - web sites). In Washington, a senior official said the aid request would go to Congress, which must still approve it, in a few days. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, would not discuss amounts. Israeli media said approval was expected. Israel had requested $8 billion in loan guarantees and $4 billion in aid to offset the costs of conflict with the Palestinians and preparations for a feared attack by Iraq (news - web sites) in response to the U.S. campaign against it. In the first Gulf War (news - web sites) Iraq hit Israel with 39 missiles, causing heavy damage but few casualties. Israel, already the largest recipient of U.S. aid, receives US$2.7 billion in U.S. aid — US$2.1 billion in military aid and US$600 million in economic aid. Palestinian Information Minister Yasser Abed Rabbo said that "the Palestinian Authority condemns the U.S. decision to grant Israel loan guarantees at this particular time, because we think that Israel will use this money to continue its settlement policy and its terrorist acts against the Palestinian people." In almost 30 months of violence, 2,225 people have been killed on the Palestinian side and 753 on the Israeli side. Palestinians fear Israel might exploit the Iraq war to ratchet up military strikes, while Israel fears militant groups could increase terror attacks in a show of support for Iraq. Netanyahu's office said U.S. National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites) called Netanyahu Wednesday to inform him of the decision. She told him the administration decided to give Israel US$1 billion more in loan guarantees than requested because it was impressed with his recently unveiled economic plan, the statement said. The plan slashes budgets and entitlements but also promises to reduce income tax. Netanyahu asked Rice to transfer the military assistance as soon as possible, his office said.

first of all thats a one-off to help with the current crisis, not regular assistance as you implied. And 9 billion is loan guarantees, which are not worth $9 billion in cash by any means. They lower the cost of borrowing, but the implication that this is an alternative source of income is incorrect.

	04-12-2003 03:25									#40
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why is it that people like you have all this compassion for the children of one side, but the far more likely to be killed children of the other side aren't worth mentioning? More Palestinian children die than Israeli children.

The death of Palestinian children is one of the great crimes of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists.

	04-12-2003 03:27									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I agree saying there isn't an incentive is correct, but I disagree with fiscal disruption is already the focus of dissidents. This is clearly not the case, as the bombing targets show. They're out for emotional targets that hit people in the heart. This only makes people angry and more stubbornly resolute.

Excuse me, when you said "dissidents" I thought you meant Israeli peace activists. I cant imagine calling a terror bomber a "dissident".

	04-12-2003 03:28									#42
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark the implication that this is an alternative source of income is incorrect.

Why?

	04-12-2003 03:31									#43
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Why?

Ok, Paktis, you walk into a bank in Athens to borrow some money. Say a thousand euros. I agree to cosign to lower your interest costs . You now have a thousand euros, and a debt for a thousand euros, though a somewhat lower interest payment than you otherwise would have had. Do you have a thousand euros of additional INCOME? No.

	04-12-2003 03:36									#44
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I was talking about the aid and annual no less, not the additional guaranteed loans, although that can be deemed an aid although of course not other peoples' money.

(And what would I do with a 1000 euros? pfft )

	04-12-2003 03:51									#45
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I wonder what happens if the US endorses the "peace plan?" Should Bush pull a Carter/Clinton and convene the Israeli and Palestinian leadership to talk Turkey?

As to who represents the Pals, I think the Hamas leadership, at least, should be part of any such peace talks. Arafat cannot make a deal without Hamas approvoal/support.

	04-12-2003 03:52									#46
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I was talking about the aid and annual no less, not the additional guaranteed loans,

well then thats only the $2.7 billion they get every year (its value in euros dropping by the day ) plus the $1 billion one off. How does that come to $10 billion?unless you were looking at what Israel REQUESTED, rather than what the US APPROVED.

	04-12-2003 03:55									#47
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark well then thats only the $2.7 billion they get every year (its value in euros dropping by the day ) plus the $1 billion one off. How does that come to $10 billion?unless you were looking at what Israel REQUESTED, rather than what the US APPROVED.

Have you been noticing the dollar/euro exchange rate lately? I think you should rename it to lira or something
Seriously though, you simply come to my words. 3 bil. a year of aid, and Israel saying that the US has granted it another 9 bil. in guarantee loans. I'm pretty sure this can be characterized as aid and a rather generous one...

	04-12-2003 04:30									#48
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I find the term 'incursion' biased and anti-semitic. This thread is such a trollfest.

	04-12-2003 05:33									#49
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark 2. Israeli soldiers killed in the territories

You forgot to insert 'occupied'.

	04-12-2003 06:05									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Some American leaders say they denounce murder, then they do not do anything to stop murderers before they kill.

Gaaahhhhh!!!!! Minority Report!!!!!! 1984!!!!!! Police State!!!!!!

*Runs around like a chicken with its head cut off*

	04-12-2003 06:13									#51
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Israel has been given a lot of loans, and they also get a lot of loans forgiven on a regular basis.

The problem here is simple: two groups that wish to be disinct claim th very same piece of real-estate, but since 1945 wipping the other side out violently, which would have been the old fashioned solution, is frowned upon given the notion that each human being has rights, and as such the wholesale killing of individuals is disapproved of. So either one side gives up and moves out (won't happen), one side wipes the other out (won't happen), one side eventually overwhelms the other with numbers (mght happen), or the land is split (might happen).

	04-12-2003 06:39									#52
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why is it that people like you have all this compassion for the children of one side, but the far more likely to be killed children of the other side aren't worth mentioning? More Palestinian children die than Israeli children.

Yes -- I agree -- more Palestinian children are dying because Palestinian leaders continue to perpetuate conditions that encourage ongoing conflict with Israel.

	04-12-2003 06:42									#53
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Lets see 1. Israeli civilians killed by terrorism 2. Israeli soldiers killed in the territories 3. Financial cost of occupation 4. Reduced trade and investment, leading to current recession in Israeli economy Yup, I see plenty of incentive, assuming peace would end all of the above. And i cant see how a real peace wouldnt.

As has already been mentioned, the American aid packages, both the direct aid and cheap loans, constitute an incentive to keep the conflict going. Unless either America promises to give Israel money regardless, or stops giving Israel money, period.

The conflict also makes it much easier to justify and facilitate the expansion of settlements, thanks to 'security' measures.

I see plenty of incentive to keep the conflict going. Especially for a settlement-obsessed nut like Sharon.

quote: As to who represents the Pals, I think the Hamas leadership, at least, should be part of any such peace talks. Arafat cannot make a deal without Hamas approvoal/support.

Yes. It makes sense to negotiate with one's enemy, as opposed to an impotent middleman.

	04-12-2003 06:51									#54
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Excuse me, when you said "dissidents" I thought you meant Israeli peace activists. I cant imagine calling a terror bomber a "dissident".

And how do bombers not qualify as "dissidents?" That's exactly what they are. You can call them whatever, but my word is certainly accurate.

But I'm not sure how you could think I was referring to anyone other than the Palestinians!

	04-12-2003 06:59									#55
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Yeah sure -- and those who slammed the planes into the World Trade Center were not terrorists -- they were dissidents.


What bunch of wishy-washy BS -- call them for what they really are!!!!!!!

	04-12-2003 07:04									#56
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Accusations of wishy-washiness from the guy who has to qualify any political statement he makes with "I'M A MODERATE!!! I'M A MODERATE!!! I'M A MODERATE!!!"

Please.

Where did I say they weren't terrorists, MrFun? I'd like a citation of that. I'll trot out one of your favorite words, but I'll actually use it correctly: STRAWMAN!

Funny how people aren't focusing on the substance of what I posited, but rather jumping on a single, irrelevant word. Yet someone accused me of being PC?

	04-12-2003 07:06									#57
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So they're dissidents AND terrorist according to your argument.

That doesn't give any stronger justification for suicide bombings.

	04-12-2003 07:10									#58
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So they're dissidents AND terrorist according to your argument.

Yeeeees. I stated as such in my response to lord of the mark. I also pointed out in my posts how they were bombing people. So it's not like I was somehow shirking away from or being dishonest about their actions.

quote: That doesn't give any stronger justification for suicide bombings.

Did I say it did? I don't recall trying to justify anybody bombing anything.

	04-12-2003 07:13									#59
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So you're point with the claim that they're both, dissidents and terrorists is . . . . . . . .?

	04-12-2003 07:42									#60
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So you're point with the claim that they're both, dissidents and terrorists is . . . . . . . .?

What on earth are you talking about? There's no "point," it's a simple matter of word definitions! I used the word "dissident" because it is accurate. I wasn't the one who started harping about word choice! This entire thing arose because LotM had a nitpick.

Jesus Christ, Apolyton remains a place of almost interminable frustration...