03-12-2003 21:14									#1
	Israel -- "Wants Peace" eh? Get a bigger avatar today!

This is in reply to Zevico's PA thread...

Israel steps up West Bank raids (by the BBC)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3287537.stm

quote: Israel has arrested some 30 Palestinian militants in a series of raids on the eve of talks in Egypt aimed at securing a new truce from Palestinian groups. Seventeen members of Islamic Jihad were arrested in Jenin, and other militants were held after raids in Ramallah, Israeli army sources said. The news comes amid a row between the US and Israel over the unofficial Geneva peace plan for the Middle East. Palestinian officials said the raids could prompt a new cycle of violence. Israel defended the renewed military operations, saying they had pre-empted a fresh wave of suicide attacks. Three Hamas militants and a Palestinian boy of six were killed by Israeli forces in Ramallah on Monday, hours before the alternative peace deal took the international stage in Geneva. On Tuesday, the plan was overshadowed by more violence, as Israeli troops shot dead two Palestinians in the West Bank. 'New settlements' The Israeli Government is reported to have approved the construction of more than 1,720 new houses in Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip this year. The Washington Post newspaper quoted critics of the expansion, who said it had undercut a freeze on settlement building set out in the roadmap peace plan. Meanwhile, Palestinian militant groups - including Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement - are in Cairo for talks aimed at securing a new Palestinian ceasefire offer. The official opening of the talks has been delayed until Thursday, when Hamas and Islamic Jihad plan to join the meeting. Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei hopes to present a truce offer to Israel - a key step in reviving the US-backed roadmap. But, with the roadmap apparently derailed, the emergence of the Geneva plan has sparked a rare public dispute between Israel and the US. US rebuked US Secretary of State Colin Powell has said he intends to meet the authors of the unofficial peace plan, despite opposition from Israel. He was responding to a rebuke by Israel's deputy prime minister, who said such a move would be a "mistake". The new plan, launched by Israeli and Palestinian political figures, calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state, and the dismantling of most Jewish settlements. It grants Israel the right to decide how many Palestinian refugees can return to Israel. The US State Department said Mr Powell was expected to meet the accord's chief authors - former Israeli Justice Minister Yossi Beilin and former Palestinian Information Minister Yasser Abed Rabbo - in Washington on Friday.

Could some rational and thoughtful person please tell me that Israel isn't seemingly doing everything in it's power to provoke the Palestinians into a violent response and further derail the peace process!!!

There haven't been any suicide bombings for months (and those were immediately after unprovoked Israeli incursions!) and yet the Israelis strike at the very moment two separate peace initiatives are being held!

On top of that, they are expanding the illegal settlements and continuing with the wall, their latest land grab scheme!

And what of the US, they stand by while all this happens and actually get told off by Israel for wanting to meet the recent Geneva Accord members, who seem to have come up with what seems to be a reasonable plan...

The sheer bare-faced nature of Israel's actions beggars belief - surely no one can tell me with a straight face that the Israeli govt actually wants peace...?

	03-12-2003 21:21									#2
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I agree with you in theory, but the example you've posted isnt' all that egregious. Killinhg the six-year old boy was bad, but he probably would have grown up to be a terrorist, so it's best to kill him now.

	03-12-2003 21:27									#3
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You got to be ****ing kidding me. "to provoke the palestinians into a viloent response"? as if the palestinians haven't been violently "responding" in the last weeks? Of course, you haven't heard of shooting, and infiltration that occur daily, but as long as it don't get dozens killed, I guess it just doesn't make the news.


****ing hillarious. I wonder why didn't you post the same thread when the El Aqsa martyrs killed twenty, ending the hudna.....

	03-12-2003 22:17									#4
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As long as a majority of people vote for Sharon (those actualy allowed to vote ) I doubt the Israeli goverment is interested in peace...........

	03-12-2003 22:42									#5
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Some Palestinian leaders say they denounce terrorism, then they do not do anything to stop Palestinian suicide bombers.

	03-12-2003 23:34									#6
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Some American leaders say they denounce murder, then they do not do anything to stop murderers before they kill.

	03-12-2003 23:39									#7
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"There haven't been any suicide bombings for months (and those were immediately after unprovoked Israeli incursions!) "


Have you considered the possibility that the dropoff in bombings was CAUSED by the incursions? If incursions were followed by bombins, youd be saying how the incursions only lead to a cycle of violence - so shouldnt you say the opposite now, or is your position unfalsifiable?

This is not to say that Sharon may not be trying stop the Geneva process. But as long as the PA isnt cracking down on Hamas, Israel has every right to do so. And imran, the problem isnt that the PA is ineffective in cracking down on Hamas - its that its not even trying, and Qurei, like Abu Mazen, wont even say hes trying.

	03-12-2003 23:52									#8
	Re: Israel -- "Wants Peace" eh? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Could some rational and thoughtful person please tell me that Israel isn't seemingly doing everything in it's power to provoke the Palestinians into a violent response and further derail the peace process!!!

quote: Israel defended the renewed military operations, saying they had pre-empted a fresh wave of suicide attacks.

So they just should have let the suicide attacks go on right?

quote: Meanwhile, Palestinian militant groups - including Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement - are in Cairo for talks aimed at securing a new Palestinian ceasefire offer.

So the Pals aren't recognizing any cease fire right now and were preparing to Israel on the eve of offering a ceasefire...sounds like their SOP.

Wouldn't the rational person realize that the road map, which was agreed to by the Pals, calls for disarmamnet of the terrorist groups? Wouldn't the rational person recognize that preparing suicide strikes is the real impediment to peace right now? Wouldn't the rational person recognize the fact that any government would strike preemptively at terrorist about to kill their citizens? Wouldn't a rational person quit judging Israel by a different standard?

Good Lord! If the Pals want peace, the DISARM THE TERRORIST! Israel has said that everything is negotiable then.

	04-12-2003 00:03									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

They can never disarm the terrorists or even try, they want Israel out of business, permantly. Any stalling or other practice that looks good on the surface for peace is nothing more than a stall tactic by the PAL to re-group or plan other hits on Israeli children and others.

If I was Israel, build the wall, put turrets on top and if a suspicious person walks within 100 yards, flame them.

The only way Pals can win this is totally disarm the terrorists and become the true victum and then present your case to the UN and then the USA would have to react on the side of Pals, for the simple reason Americans hate watching chidren die on television if "truly" unprovoked, retaliation doesn't count. Right now Israel gets most of the sympathy because we are seeing bus loads of children dying whether Sharon is right or wrong, they are getting our support.

Last edited by Defiant on 04-12-2003 at 00:23

	04-12-2003 00:09									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant They can never disarm the terrorists or even try, they want Israel out of business, permantly.

This is the crux of the issue.

	04-12-2003 00:09									#11
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Well I guess Isreal should only do something AFTER a school bus is blown all to hell. Wouldn't want to offend anyone here.

	04-12-2003 00:19									#12
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Agreed, the Pals will have my sympathy when I'm convinced they actually want peace instead of the total destruction of Israel.

My support for the other side has dropped considerably the last few years, but it will take considerable effort by the Pals towards a peacefull resolution before I will stop my support of Israel.

Both leaders have to go. But I doubt it will make any difference.

	04-12-2003 00:22									#13
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Other than the wierd part about them being stupid enough to say something against Powell visiting someone, I faill to see what about the BBC article got you in an uproar. I suggest increasing your fiber intake.

	04-12-2003 00:46									#14
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quote: Originally posted by rah Agreed, the Pals will have my sympathy when I'm convinced they actually want peace instead of the total destruction of Israel.

I love you.


Well ok, I don't -- but SOMEONE other than a far-left extremist who understands my viewpoint.

	04-12-2003 00:53									#15
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It's a little weird because I used to be a diehard Israeli supporter. But after being here a few years, I have questioned my commitment. There are two sides, and they both seem to have problems. Score one for Apolyton. Yes, I am not far-left.

	04-12-2003 00:57									#16
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Rah -- the everyday Palestinian lives in misery -- that I understand, and from THAT aspect, I sympathize.

However, I cannot sympathize with some of the Palestinian leaders who say one thing but not doing anything -- talk is cheap.

	04-12-2003 01:04									#17
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Yeah, that's what I came to understand after being here for awhile; the misery of the common Palestinian.
You didn't see that side in the papers in the US much. (but I must admit, it's more common now, even in the more conservative papers.)
While the Israeli are to blame for part of it, I hold the Palestinian leadership responsible for most of it. As long as their goal is the total destruction of Israel, their people will pay the price for their stuborness.

	04-12-2003 01:29									#18
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There's no worthwhile incentive for the state of Israel to seek peace at the moment. Not yet, anyway.

Still, well done to America for cutting the cost of the wall from their subsidies to Israel. A move in the right direction.

	04-12-2003 01:33									#19
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Misery doesn't even begin to describe it. Suicide bombings are absolutely horrible, but Palestninians are murdered on a daily basis by Israel. That doesn't even take into account those who are wounded, those who have their houses and farms destroyed, those who are harrassed by soldiers, those are subject to arbitrary searches and seizures of their persons, or those who are tortured.

The difference, Palestinians committ war crimes. Israel is committing a crime against humanity. Both sides are wrong, but one is much more wrong than the other.

	04-12-2003 01:38									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Killinhg the six-year old boy was bad, but he probably would have grown up to be a terrorist, so it's best to kill him now.

Good God Che,

Are you really advocating the killing of children because they may have grown up into terrorists (which, given the ratio of palestinian terrorists to the adult population is a very small risk)


(this is to show others how stupid the situation is, I know Che is being ironic)

	04-12-2003 01:49									#21
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Misery doesn't even begin to describe it. Suicide bombings are absolutely horrible, but Palestninians are murdered on a daily basis by Israel. That doesn't even take into account those who are wounded, those who have their houses and farms destroyed, those who are harrassed by soldiers, those are subject to arbitrary searches and seizures of their persons, or those who are tortured. The difference, Palestinians committ war crimes. Israel is committing a crime against humanity. Both sides are wrong, but one is much more wrong than the other.

Yes, that may be true, but I have to blame the PAL leadership. If they were serious about peace, all they would have to do is reign in the terrorist/freedom fighter groups and acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and the pressure would be squarely on the Israeli to negotiate. I'm sure I'm not the only Israeli supporter that would be pissed if they didn't bargain in good faith after that. There credibility would be lost quite quickly and a lot of their support in the US would diminish to the point that politicians would get uncomfortable supporting them. Without US support, they'd be in a much tighter spot.

	04-12-2003 01:54									#22
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Che,
The Palestinian people know who the terrorists are. I know if they turn them in, they and their family could face retribution by the remaining terrorists, however, they are dying anyway in an endless circle of violence, bite the damn bullet and start turning them in or quit supporting them. One begins to think that the Palestinian people by not turning in known terrorists, are bringing some of this death to their own doorsteps.

	04-12-2003 01:55									#23
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The situation on the Middle East must truly be precariously balanced if it is so necessary to post opposing Internet threads for EVERY DAMNED ISSUE that happens to arise.

	04-12-2003 02:35									#24
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quote: Originally posted by el freako Good God Che, Are you really advocating the killing of children because they may have grown up into terrorists (which, given the ratio of palestinian terrorists to the adult population is a very small risk) (this is to show others how stupid the situation is, I know Che is being ironic)

No ones advocating it and no ones doing it. Children are killed in the course of pursuing terrorists, responding to shots from a crowd etc. Israel may well be negligent, and making a wrong tradeoff in risk of civilian death versus the safety to their troops and effectiviness in getting terrorists - but they are not murdering anyone, except in the views of those who choose to make no distinction between an unintended death and a deliberate murder.

	04-12-2003 02:37									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman There's no worthwhile incentive for the state of Israel to seek peace at the moment. Not yet, anyway. Still, well done to America for cutting the cost of the wall from their subsidies to Israel. A move in the right direction.

Lets see
1. Israeli civilians killed by terrorism
2. Israeli soldiers killed in the territories
3. Financial cost of occupation
4. Reduced trade and investment, leading to current recession in Israeli economy


Yup, I see plenty of incentive, assuming peace would end all of the above. And i cant see how a real peace wouldnt.

	04-12-2003 02:39									#26
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quote: Originally posted by rah Yeah, that's what I came to understand after being here for awhile; the misery of the common Palestinian. You didn't see that side in the papers in the US much. (but I must admit, it's more common now, even in the more conservative papers.) While the Israeli are to blame for part of it, I hold the Palestinian leadership responsible for most of it. As long as their goal is the total destruction of Israel, their people will pay the price for their stuborness.

What are the Israeli actions that cause the misery - primarily check points, limits on work in Israel. Which are directly related to security.

	04-12-2003 02:43									#27
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this might explain the timing of the latest incursions

AP

"JERUSALEM - Israeli police raided a West Bank mosque on Wednesday, capturing two Palestinians who allegedly were planning to attack a school. One was reportedly wearing an explosives belt.



Security forces went on high alert in the northern Israeli towns of Afula and Beit Shean after what the army said were "numerous" warnings of Palestinian attacks. One main road was closed and roadblocks posted on others. "

	04-12-2003 02:47									#28
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark 3. Financial cost of occupation 4. Reduced trade and investment, leading to current recession in Israeli economy

These are the two that should be the focus of dissidents. Palestinians really don't have anything to lose fiscally, since they're already rife with abject poverty. Israel, however, is a country that needs economic prosperity to continue to function as it does. So disrupting Israeli commerce and making the situation unbearable for business would be the most effective way to bring real pressure on the government to resolve the issue quickly.

War is bad for (most) business.

	04-12-2003 02:51									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov These are the two that should be the focus of dissidents.

It already is. The post that israel has no incentive for peace was totally incorrect. The differences within Israel are over what its worth giving up for peace, and whether they yet have a partner with whom a stable peace can be made. And how to get to such a partner if they dont (IE the case can be made that Arafat is not a genuine partner, but that Sharon missed a chance to undermine Arafat by failing to make more concessions while Abbas was in office - though there are counter arguments to that)

	04-12-2003 02:51									#30
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yet war is very beneficial to any given army's budgets and standing and the interntional arms industries. Also Israel gets the highest financial aid from the US. 10 bil. dollars was the latest IIRC so it has other sources of income as well.