03-12-2003 22:14									#1
	Spy missions Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Has anyone found a use for the various spy missions that become available after building the Espionage Agency?

	03-12-2003 22:50									#2
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Stealing plans is a good way to find out where a potential enemy's forces are concentrated prior to attacking. It's pretty much the only one I use.

I guess sabotaging production would work well in conjunction with investigating cities to find wonders/small wonders/costly buildings/etc. that would provide good targets.... but I can't be bothered to constantly investigate a bunch of cities. Too bad there isn't a mission akin to the steal plans one that just reveals production in all of a Civ's cities. Or is there already?? I can't remember. Guess I don't use Espionage all that much. Never mind.

	03-12-2003 23:30									#3
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I use investigating cities a lot during war to plan my attacks and knowing if I have enough available units to take it. Sabotaging is also something I occasionally do to get a wonder before the AI. And initiate propaganda is also fun when it works!

	03-12-2003 23:41									#4
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I haven't used Initate Propaganda yet; perhaps it would be useful especially if I've got a lot of Culture in my Civ.
I think it might be fun to play, say, the Babylonians and do all sorts of nefarious spy activities to dominate, instead of war. Be sort of like a cross between Spock, the Medici's, Fuggers and Machiavelli.

	04-12-2003 14:40									#5
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I have found Spy missions to just be a waste of gold in PtW. Are they cheaper or more effective in C3C? ANYONE tried?

	04-12-2003 18:05									#6
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Not me, I'm still playing vanilla Civ3.

I tried propaganda during my last bout of playing and the chance of success seemed a bit too low to be routinely useful.

Although I suspect there may be rare cases where it could be needed - gaining a critical resource, say, in circumstances where to seize it by force would be too costly.

Investigating cities looks to be worth experimenting with. I'll give that one a try.

	05-12-2003 18:32									#7
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A bit off topic, but a nice side effect of the gpt bug in C3C is that the AI has lots of cash lying about, and they are actually using it for espionage missions.

In my current game, I've had at least two techs stolen (there's no other way the Babylonians could have gotten them so fast), one city experiencing a negative propaganda campaign, and my military plans have been stolen at least four times. My production has been sabotaged in several cities, too. I've never noticed any of this before.

	14-06-2004 16:10									#8
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I thought 'Initiate Propaganda' might be useful in cultural warfare, but never had any luck (It's rather costly to move your palace around . ). Maybe I'm doing it all wrong !?

Is there a lock-up period, so you have to wait a certain number of turns after each attempt ? (as with the 'Plant Spy' mission)

Is the effect perhaps cumulative ?

What are the chances actually that it will succeed ? (I assume that some of the same factors that determine culture flips also govern this.)

	15-06-2004 17:18									#9
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I stopped even to plant spies at some time. The whole espionage is just not worth the effort. Too expensive, too frequently failed and too harsh consequences. I mean, in reality moles are caught all the time, even among allies. If this would lead to a declaration of war as frequently as in the game, we all would be in a never ending world war. I think, Firaxis just wanted to counter the overpowered espionage mission of Civ2 and greatly overdid it.

	17-06-2004 22:56									#10
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The two uses I have for spies is to investigate a city (usually a small city, but connected to their capital) so I can check what resources they have access to, and calculate whether removal of a resource will do them damage.
The second and most commonly used is to steal technology. this is effective about 2/3rd of the time and if you are behind late in the game, it is your only option to gain techs at a reasonable price. Learning the tech or buying the tech will often cost 4 times the amount.
Of course there is a risk of war, so a gpt deal with the target civ prior to the theft is good, because you will not get the blame for any broken deal as a result of a declared war. So buying a tech for a large gpt from the target civ, then immediately stealing another with a spy can be good business and result in either 1 or 2 techs a t a reasonable price. Hopefully these can then be traded to other civs so that you get all your money back. I often find stealing techs gian me more money than I spend if I select the right one

	17-06-2004 23:04									#11
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Planting spies is worthwhile even if you never use them, just to be able to see the enemy's order of battle, especially where air and naval power are concerned. That said, I'll usually use them to investigate cities before attacking, and rarely, but sometimes, steal plans or sabotage production. I tried propaganda back in a warlord or regent game over and over with no success (and a very commanding culture lead, target city in disorder and target gov't in anarchy). I've pretty much written it off as an option since that game.

	18-06-2004 15:36									#12
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You don't need a spy to investigate a city. All it takes is an embassy, and it's comparatively cheap (for the later game) and failsafe.

	18-06-2004 16:44									#13
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A diplomatic mission is not available during warfare, so a spy mission for investigation is necessary then, generally most spy missions can be done by diplomats outside of warfare

	18-06-2004 22:45									#14
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The spy is useful even if you never use him for giving more info about your oppoents armed forces in the "Military Advisor" screen.

Also, if your really in a space race, the spy will also help keep track of how far along they are.

	18-06-2004 23:34									#15
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Those are good reason and I also may need one to locate nukes.

I may need to know what cities have them, so I can go at them first.

	19-06-2004 01:13									#16
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I'm talking about wartime investigations, SR, at which time your embassy is shut down. Investigating the city with a spy is the same price and as failsafe as with the embassy, too.

	21-06-2004 17:08									#17
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Hello! I've finally got my internet connection back after 11 long months! (V. long story)

Well. You must know your enemy as much as you know yourself.

Spy missions are good.

Well, first of all, planting spies usally has a better chance if you do not have a embassy with the civ.
Don't know why.

You can have a gander at your rival's military. You can finally stop being scared of bigger civs when you find out the most dominant unit is armed with pointy sticks and stones.

You can initate propaganda. This only works on cities you would expect to fall to you eventully. Doing propaganda means you get it I]now[/I]

You can keep tabs on the space race.

You can destroy production. (V useful if Wonder/Space race.)

You can investigate cities. Excellent in scouting defences.

You can do counter-spying. Great!

Well, most of these can be used to make war by different means. You can simply push a civ around until they swing around to bite you. I do it all the time.

Alas, how can you go into battle blind?

Note-you need to be willing to squander a lot of cash to do this well. I'm a brilliant economist (in all games!), so I'm allways rich(ish), and some people do not like the uncertiancy of the spy investments.

	22-06-2004 03:06									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Silpy Well, first of all, planting spies usally has a better chance if you do not have a embassy with the civ. Don't know why.

:hmm: I'm frankly skeptical of this claim. Have you actually run tests?

quote: Originally posted by Silpy You can have a gander at your rival's military. You can finally stop being scared of bigger civs when you find out the most dominant unit is armed with pointy sticks and stones.

Seeing the unit list is one of my favorite spy abilities. Especially since it's free so long as you have a spy planted.

quote: Originally posted by Silpy You can initate propaganda. This only works on cities you would expect to fall to you eventully. Doing propaganda means you get it I]now[/I]

I've never had much success with propaganda. I consider it generally a waste of money.

quote: Originally posted by Silpy You can keep tabs on the space race.

Very useful. Lets you know if there's someone whose capital you must get. And, like the unit list, it's free with a planted spy.

quote: Originally posted by Silpy You can destroy production. (V useful if Wonder/Space race.)

This ability is nice, though I haven't had a great success rate with it.

quote: Originally posted by Silpy You can investigate cities. Excellent in scouting defences.

During war is generally when you want to investigate cities anyway, so a spy definitely does serve as a nice replaceement for that closed embassy.

quote: Originally posted by Silpy You can do counter-spying. Great!

Never had much success with this either. Since I also haven't had much trouble with enemy spies (note: I'm talking SP only here) I generally don't try to reveal enemy spies.

quote: Originally posted by Silpy Well, most of these can be used to make war by different means. You can simply push a civ around until they swing around to bite you. I do it all the time. Alas, how can you go into battle blind? Note-you need to be willing to squander a lot of cash to do this well. I'm a brilliant economist (in all games!), so I'm allways rich(ish), and some people do not like the uncertiancy of the spy investments.

This is a nice use for spies if you can't afford to start the war due to continuing deals, etc.

	25-06-2004 13:55									#19
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About planting a spy before a diplomat, it does seem to work. I don't have figures, but I will by Monday.

About propaganda. Im thinking of little towns with no culture, stuck in the middle of the desert or tundra, but controlling some good. (Often Oil). These cities will usally fall to me eventully (as I allways put at least a temple in every city, even if it is nothing more than a large colony, to hinder this happining to me) But why wait!

With destroying production, I admit, it's not very sucessful. Wish it was as sucessful as on Civ II. It used to be one of by best tactics.

Also, with investigating cities, you can see what resorces they are getting. By siezing a few tiles with luxuries on it and ripping up the roads, you can cripple a Democracy's warmongering potentual. (Works best with Paratroopers)

With counter-spying, it is not very sucessful. I usally use it as a sabre-rattling exersize.

Well, I usally have the cash to do these things. But don't scrimp on updating your military for it though. It's not worth it.