05-12-2003 14:14									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Kull I'm a bit concerned about the actual benefits of barricades as a defense multiplier. In the Napoleon Scenario - in three separate instances - I had veteran "Voltigeurs" (D5) fortified inside barricades on hills. These were attacked by Austrian Hussars (A6) on grassland, and the Voltigeurs lost - badly. In all three instances, the Hussars didn't even shift from Green to Yellow. Admittedly this is a small sample, so I'm curious to see if anyone else has experienced similar dubious results.

I gave up on defense on that scenario- the only good defense is a good offense.

Although my units within cities actually faired well in that scenario. But not outside the cities on defense. I had those volt guys fortified in mountains and they went down.

	05-12-2003 18:20									#32
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Yeah barricades are "only" good for increasing your fort's defensive value by another 50%. Boy, I hate those "useless" improvements.

::has used barricades dozens upon dozens of times in MP games since release:: They're not perfect as they stand now, but they're FAR from useless. Just because something doesn't do exactly what YOU want it to do, doesn't mean it has no use or value.

Maginot lines may not work, but jamming a bottleneck up works just fine. Regardless of the unit's defense while you're trying to pound it on your barricade, you still get one more turn of warning as it idles on your "useless" barricade, which can be pretty nice in the event of a surprise attack or feint you fell too hard for. (Too bad the AI never feints, unlike humans.)

One more turn of moving units into position to meet an attack? Yep, I hate it when my "useless" improvement slows that cavalry charge down.

Darn useless things.

	05-12-2003 18:41									#33
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You must be playing some very polite MP players then, since they bother to stop and attack your barricades. Personally, I just bypass fortresses and so do the players I play against.

From RobC's post it doesnt appear that barricades stop adjacent movement; that property would have value. Perhaps you have other experiences?

	05-12-2003 18:51									#34
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH You must be playing some very polite MP players then, since they bother to stop and attack your barricades. Personally, I just bypass fortresses and so do the players I play against. From RobC's post it doesnt appear that barricades stop adjacent movement; that property would have value. Perhaps you have other experiences?

Well, there goes over ten years of my playstyle...uggg! No more ZOC fortress borders.

I want my ZOCs back!

	05-12-2003 21:56									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Yeah barricades are "only" good for increasing your fort's defensive value by another 50%. Boy, I hate those "useless" improvements.

There's nothing wrong with barricades increasing defensive value. The part about stopping enemy movement on that tile seems of extremely little value, however, if you must give the enemy that great defensive tile. What's the point of stopping them if they are defended too well to effectively counter-attack?

	05-12-2003 23:24									#36
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quote: Originally posted by RobC There's nothing wrong with barricades increasing defensive value. The part about stopping enemy movement on that tile seems of extremely little value, however, if you must give the enemy that great defensive tile. What's the point of stopping them if they are defended too well to effectively counter-attack?

Perhaps a weakened enemy. Cavalry, not rifleman in the newly captured barricade/fortress.

I maintain these are only good for open terrain, near your border to protect against the blitzkrieg. It will take two turns, not one to reach your city (for a city near the border).

I concur with an earlier posting by SpencerH, when on offense, you bypass these squares anyway. So it's a part of strategy and tactics. (great defunct magazine for those of you who remember that)

	06-12-2003 01:13									#37
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SG, you were a Strategy&Tactics subscriber too?? I am SO sad that I disposed of all my games and magazines -- such great reference material!

	06-12-2003 02:07									#38
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i was really hoping we'd get civ2 ZOC back in some form. i really miss it.

	06-12-2003 02:25									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe SG, you were a Strategy&Tactics subscriber too?? I am SO sad that I disposed of all my games and magazines -- such great reference material!

Jaybe,

Yes, my Dad subscribed and I read every issue. My Dad and I use to play wargames together when I was growing up.

I was probably more educated about the Soviet Union's military potential than any other student in my school through high school!

My Dad is working in Saudi Arabia now and asked me to keep all the old games, magazines, etc. Once in awhile, I'll go downstairs and read the old magazines....

	06-12-2003 03:49									#40
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of course, if you know the enemy is going to bypass your barricade, you can always station offensive troops there... either smash his advance force from behind, or go after any artillery, workers, or settlers he's got bringing up the rear.

keep the enemy guessing, or worrying, or (best of all) sitting on his thumbs

	06-12-2003 07:49									#41
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Rob C:

The barricade is working (keep in mind the restriction is not functional on other civ's land) if you notice, your cav should have 1 more move after entering your (or their?) territory, but the barricade prevents the second movement.

	06-12-2003 08:25									#42
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Its times like these I wish a dev would show up. :\

	06-12-2003 12:32									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber Rob C: The barricade is working (keep in mind the restriction is not functional on other civ's land) if you notice, your cav should have 1 more move after entering your (or their?) territory, but the barricade prevents the second movement.

Actually, no...that barricade was in the Napoleonic Europe conquest, and my Ottoman cavalry unit only has 2 movement points. Barricades are supposed to absorb all of a unit's movement for the turn anyway.

	06-12-2003 14:06									#44
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quote: Originally posted by RobC There's nothing wrong with barricades increasing defensive value. The part about stopping enemy movement on that tile seems of extremely little value, however, if you must give the enemy that great defensive tile. What's the point of stopping them if they are defended too well to effectively counter-attack?

well you can't really counter attack, but the attacking enemy can't exactly do what he put out to do can he? His intention was to drive into your territory to either take/destroy your cities or destroy your infrastrcutre. He can't do neither if he just holes up in your barricade. Sure he can put you through war weariness if you are in a republic/democracy and he is not in a ww goverment, but other than that it's pointless just remaining there. Eventually he will have to move those cavalry etc. out. By the same token you don't want to put these barricades too close to your cities.

It's mainly a defensive structure to use by players who have no desire to wage offensive wars. And prefer to keep their units in their own territory. But like I said, you have to place the barricade far enough away from your city so they can't use that as a staging point to attack your city.

In either case, I never use them. I rarely use fortresses except on certain choke points or specific points of interest. And I'll use barricades in the same way. I prefer to wage offensive war.

	06-12-2003 22:48									#45
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I get the idea that some of the posts in this thread are referring to building a fort/barricade and then leaving it unoccupied/undefended.

If you cannot afford to defend it, you are foolish to build it in the first place and are abusing the tool.

	07-12-2003 00:45									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe I get the idea that some of the posts in this thread are referring to building a fort/barricade and then leaving it unoccupied/undefended. If you cannot afford to defend it, you are foolish to build it in the first place and are abusing the tool.

OTOH, you are foolish to think that the movement-stopping ability of barricades has any use whatsoever if you always keep every fort/barricade defended anyway.

	07-12-2003 01:47									#47
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It would be nice if the editor would allow us to make barricades a prerequisite of fortresses. That would allow for a WWI scenario where barricades could act like trenches.

	07-12-2003 07:54									#48
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I would like a more generic enhancement -- to be able to specify a 'prerequisite' terrain improvement so it would be easy to mod barricades to not require fortresses, nor forts to require barricades. Then you really could have a WWII mod with infantry building barricades/trenches...plus, you could then make super farms that require irrigated tiles first, etc.