04-12-2003 00:02									#1
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My apologies if this has already been addressed, but I'm unclear on exactly what barricades do.

At first I thought they imposed zones of control ala CIVII. So, for example, I could build a wall of fortresses, but would only need to build a fortress every fourth square.

A closer reading seems to indicate that all they really do is double the defensive bonus for a fortress, and prevent an enemy unit from moving out of the square on the same turn it enters. Presumably you'd have to leave the fortress undefended so an enemy unit could enter that square.

If that's true wouldn't it mean that you've trapped an enemy unit inside a fortress that has a double defensive bonus, thereby making it that much harder to defeat? Why would that be a good thing?

Could someone please set me straight? Thanks.

	04-12-2003 01:28									#2
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I've not played around with barricades yet, but I imagine a wall of them would stop a suprise stack of fast movers in its tracks. They cant pillage that turn because they have run out of movement, and the barricades could be used to halt movement on roads outside your borders (think rise of rome roads).

As you say, it does seem a bit strange. Its not going to be perfect for every situation, but double defense is enough to keep me happy.

	04-12-2003 03:32									#3
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I have built Barracades in both of my last two games, but none of the AI civs were dumb enough to even come near them, so I don't know what they do to movement.

	04-12-2003 04:37									#4
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i believe the barricade ensures that all your artillery can take free potshots at passing units. well, passing enemy units.

	04-12-2003 04:55									#5
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Yes, walling your borders with barricades would mean that you would have at least one turn of warning before an attack, and that you would be able to attack their attacking force before it could attack you. The downside is that the stalled forces have a defensive bonus, making it more valuable as just an early-warning system. However, if you put them on open terrain, the defense bonus shouldn't be too much of a problem. Fortress + barricade only gives a 50% bonus, right?

	04-12-2003 06:11									#6
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Barricades increase the defense of forts, and also stop multi-move units like cavalry on that spot for 1 turn, no matter how many movement points they have left (but it kind of sucks because you have to give them such a great defensive tile with forts AND barricades!)

	04-12-2003 06:24									#7
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I havent played conquests much but I did read about it. I think it would be a good place to stall enmey offencive units to hit with artilary.

	04-12-2003 07:29									#8
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Fortress + barricade only gives a 50% bonus, right?

Isn't it 100% (50% for fort; doubled with barricade)?

Catt

	04-12-2003 07:49									#9
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CIV III ZOC != CIV II ZOC;

civ3's ZOC is simply taking free shots at passerbys.

	04-12-2003 07:52									#10
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and yes, it's 100% bonus with barricades (well, 110% on flat land, for basic defense value).

so those cavalry on that barridace grassland defend at 6.3.

how about a barricaded mountain? yipes!

	04-12-2003 08:55									#11
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that would be a great place to hide a king

	04-12-2003 08:57									#12
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except that it wouldn't be hidden, as you can right click on non-city stacks to see them. enough arty and it's over

	04-12-2003 09:11									#13
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I just realized, if you could make barricades not require fortresses (IIRC this isn't possible, but I don't have C3C yet so I'm not sure), and you remove the defense bonus, you can make a "minefield".

	04-12-2003 09:33									#14
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I'm a bit concerned about the actual benefits of barricades as a defense multiplier. In the Napoleon Scenario - in three separate instances - I had veteran "Voltigeurs" (D5) fortified inside barricades on hills. These were attacked by Austrian Hussars (A6) on grassland, and the Voltigeurs lost - badly. In all three instances, the Hussars didn't even shift from Green to Yellow. Admittedly this is a small sample, so I'm curious to see if anyone else has experienced similar dubious results.

	04-12-2003 11:20									#15
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Wouldn't it be great if Barricades gave a Civ2 ZoC in the squares surrounding it?

That would make them soooooo worth it.

	04-12-2003 11:29									#16
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Defense bonuses aren't insurmountable - what were armies upped for, if not to make them capable of taking out entrenched defenders?

Except then there's the case of a 4 elite mech inf. army with the mil. academy bonus fortified in a fortress and barricade on a mountain behind a river....

EDIT: that gives a defense of 202.5

	04-12-2003 16:36									#17
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker EDIT: that gives a defense of 202.5

Good, I'm gonna make more of them then... teach that AI a lesson for looking across my rivers at my mountain tops.

	04-12-2003 18:50									#18
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quote: Originally posted by RobC Barricades increase the defense of forts, and also stop multi-move units like cavalry on that spot for 1 turn, no matter how many movement points they have left (but it kind of sucks because you have to give them such a great defensive tile with forts AND barricades!)

You have to wonder who at Firaxis dreamed up this useless change and why no one else called them on it?

Skywalker is right though, if it can be edited to not require a fortress then it will be useful.

	04-12-2003 23:15									#19
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker I just realized, if you could make barricades not require fortresses (IIRC this isn't possible, but I don't have C3C yet so I'm not sure), and you remove the defense bonus, you can make a "minefield".

What I did in my barricade mod was to make fortresses only take 1 turn to build, have 0% defensive bonus, and made the graphic 'invisible'. It's still a little annoying to have to build the fortress first to build the barricade but at least you don't end up giving the enemy such a great defensive tile. If you have a scenario/mod with it's own map, I guess you could also pre-populate every land tile with invisible 0-defensive fortresses, but it would be kind of annoying (and the AI might end up wasting time 'pillaging' empty tiles)

	05-12-2003 01:19									#20
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quote: Wouldn't it be great if Barricades gave a Civ2 ZoC in the squares surrounding it?

That's what I thought they were supposed to do, originally. Shame it didn't work out that way. I guess we can always dream of a patch...

	05-12-2003 01:43									#21
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Geez....how many games must I build the Magniot Line? I do find a use for barricades if there is a border that crosses grassland or plains. In a worse case scenario where you find yourself defeated in your prepared positions, you don't get blitzed by the cavalry or tanks. You have one turn of reprieve to rush up reinforcements. If there is a city right behind the front line, you can draft, rush build or something to get troops there fast. However, if there are hills, mountains, etc. much less need for barricades.

Then again...you are in dire straits if you find yourself in that situation.

Perhaps the barricades would be more useful in human versus human games.... Has anyone tried a multiplayer game that used barricades?

I'm very curious to try multiplayer....however, I probably can't commit the necessary time to really do it.

/ramble off

	05-12-2003 04:40									#22
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Except then there's the case of a 4 elite mech inf. army with the mil. academy bonus fortified in a fortress and barricade on a mountain behind a river.... EDIT: that gives a defense of 202.5

don't forget the radar tower that is 2 squares away

	05-12-2003 04:59									#23
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quote: Originally posted by RobC Barricades increase the defense of forts, and also stop multi-move units like cavalry on that spot for 1 turn, no matter how many movement points they have left (but it kind of sucks because you have to give them such a great defensive tile with forts AND barricades!)

It stops a unit that moves adjacent to the fort/ barracade not into it. Any fortress/ barricade that is remotely near a front line should be sufficently manned ( 2 good defenders + Arty). Giving the AI such valuable real estate is a good way to end your reign as "Lord Protector, Leader of the Free World, and All That is Holy"

	05-12-2003 05:03									#24
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Defense bonuses aren't insurmountable - what were armies upped for, if not to make them capable of taking out entrenched defenders? Except then there's the case of a 4 elite mech inf. army with the mil. academy bonus fortified in a fortress and barricade on a mountain behind a river.... EDIT: that gives a defense of 202.5

Hmm. Now that is a target for a Nuke; or my entire airforce, artillery, and navy (100 Bombers, 100 RA's & 70 DD's & BB's should do the trick )

	05-12-2003 06:55									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber It stops a unit that moves adjacent to the fort/ barracade not into it.

Nope:

	05-12-2003 08:58									#26
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Yeah, but you are already adjacent to the barricade. What if you were one square SE of the start position?

	05-12-2003 10:11									#27
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Oh, very well:

	05-12-2003 11:46									#28
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and you're at war? Considering that placing barricades in the "short" corners of your cultural borders protects that annoying knights from getting to your town on the first round of attack means they're worth it for me. But yes I agree that the increase in defence for enemy troops are annoying.

	05-12-2003 13:09									#29
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quote: Originally posted by RobC What I did in my barricade mod was to make fortresses only take 1 turn to build, have 0% defensive bonus, and made the graphic 'invisible'. It's still a little annoying to have to build the fortress first to build the barricade but at least you don't end up giving the enemy such a great defensive tile. If you have a scenario/mod with it's own map, I guess you could also pre-populate every land tile with invisible 0-defensive fortresses, but it would be kind of annoying (and the AI might end up wasting time 'pillaging' empty tiles)

You do realize that Barricades double the value of Fortresses?

	05-12-2003 14:05									#30
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RobC , can I bother you with another test?
If you had a maginot line of barracks, with spaces, and a city behind them. Would the barricades force even fast mover to spend 3 turns to get to the city?

. . . . B
C . . . . <-U
. . . . B

c-city,b-barricades,u-unit