04-12-2003 01:42									#1
	"Skip First Turn" Not So Great? Full PM-box? Change here!

I just played the WWII Pacific scenario's fist couple of turns as Japan. Since the Allies are supposed to skip their first turn, I figured I had a double turn to start. With this in mind, I left a lot of units in vulnerable positions, expecting to make changes on the second part of my "double turn".

But to my surprise, the Allies moved after my first turn, sinking loaded transports and capturing artillery in the process!

I checked the editor and it lists each Ally as Players 1 thru 4, and Japan as Player 5. So I guess by skipping the Allies, it only means that Japan goes first! There is no double turn, and the only advantage Japan gets out of this is that it gets 50 turns where the Allies only get 49.

I'm going to edit this and replay when I get the time.

Anyone else notice this?

	04-12-2003 01:51									#2
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Yeah, I noticed that too. Be more careful next time.

	04-12-2003 03:17									#3
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So you like to double post the same question!!

What made you to assume Japan would get double first turns?

Rules set up so Allies play after Japan. Thus,

As Japan
Turn one, you move
Turn one, AI's move

As Allies civ,
Turn one, you don't move
Turn one, AI's move
Turn two you can move


Japan gets a lot of advantages:
-- a strong military
-- fleet in position for first strike
-- by going for VP you should be able to win by turn 30. In theory it is possible for Japan to win by turn 20 if keeps VP and military conquests going.
--TWO armies
-- 369 shields more than US
-- 7 carriers to US 4
-- 21 bombers US 3
-- 20 destroyers to US 12
-- 14 juicy US subs make easy VP targets
-- 12 heavy cruisers to US 6
-- 11 marines to US 0
-- 8 transports to US 1


AI Japan hits Pearl and runs. Surely you can do better and make US island hoping and recapture of VP's more difficult.

I don't see with all those advantages why you need to edit the rules. All you have to do is delay US and capture VP's from the other 3 weak armies.


-- PF

	04-12-2003 04:13									#4
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall So you like to double post the same question!! What made you to assume Japan would get double first turns? Rules set up so Allies play after Japan. Thus, As Japan Turn one, you move Turn one, AI's move As Allies civ, Turn one, you don't move Turn one, AI's move Turn two you can move AI Japan hits Pearl and runs. Surely you can do better and make US island hoping and recapture of VP's more difficult. I don't see with all those advantages why you need to edit the rules. All you have to do is delay US and capture VP's from the other 3 weak armies.

It's not a double post if I post on another web site! Not everybody goes to both, only sickos like us!

I'm not making the argument that Japan needs more help. I'm saying that the new so-called feature in the editor "Skip First Turn" turns out to be a non-feature because we already had the ability to set a player to move first. And that's all this does!

To quote you again:

Turn one, you don't move
Turn one, AI's move
Turn two you can move

How is this different than:

Turn one, AI's move
Turn one you can move

The only difference is the number of the turn!

OKay, I'm done ranting.

	04-12-2003 06:35									#5
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hey I placed all my aircraft on wake Island and well ill let history right the rest

	04-12-2003 07:33									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Falconius It's not a double post if I post on another web site! Not everybody goes to both, only sickos like us!

Yep, our crack addiction is a game.

quote: I'm not making the argument that Japan needs more help. I'm saying that the new so-called feature in the editor "Skip First Turn" turns out to be a non-feature because we already had the ability to set a player to move first. And that's all this does!

I misunderstood

quote: To quote you again:

Option A

quote: Turn one, you don't move Turn one, AI's move Turn two you can move How is this different than:

Option B

quote: Turn one, AI's move Turn one you can move The only difference is the number of the turn! OKay, I'm done ranting.

1st-- re quote posted on civfan. The scenario write up was poor. I can see how it was confusing.

2nd-- Under Option B you can move units BUT you can do the rest of your turn. I did in the WW2 scenario:
-- change build priority
-- set research path
-- trade with allies
-- rush improvements
-- change city citizens tile working

Being able to do all this before the Japanese attack is very helpful. The game would be different if my first turn was totally skipped and I had to do all that on the second turn when I had full control. As it was I barely hung on to Manilla.

Does this make sense?

-- PF

	04-12-2003 13:17									#7
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USA goes first, that is why Japan does not get double turns.

But one thing I noticed when I was testing a hotseat game is the U.S. is able to move on turn 0!!!!!! This isn't good for multiplaying purposes.

	05-12-2003 02:54									#8
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall Does this make sense?

Yes, it does now. Thanks for that explanation. The "Skip first turn" is not what I first thought it was, but it's not as useless as I posted earlier. I see now that the Allies get a kind of "Half Turn".

	05-12-2003 03:34									#9
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Why should Japan get two turns in a row?

You can already do enough damage on one turn with your "surprise" attack. Each turn represents a month. I'm sure the Allies would have some capability to react within a month...

	05-12-2003 03:55									#10
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Actually, I believe the record for winning this scenario was either 8 or 11 turns... ::think:: Maybe someone else from the beta remembers. I know I got it in eleven, but someone else might've gotten it in 8....

	05-12-2003 03:58									#11
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I think I got it in 16 the first time I played it.

	05-12-2003 04:41									#12
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The main problem with the WW2 scenerio is that the Allies have very little chance to win the game (or to launch any meaningful counteratack) . The US has very little production (and the Pacific theater actually had more resources devoted to it than the European) also the English, Chinese, and Dutch are almost worthless.

Playing the Japanese is not the problem, its playing as the Allies where this scenerio falls far short of acceptable.

	05-12-2003 07:41									#13
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All the Conquests were tested to see if they were winable at regent or higher level. One playtester won the WWII conquest with all the nations, most at Sid level.

	05-12-2003 13:35									#14
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I have won at Sid level with all the playable civs in WWII in the Pacific, and could probably do it with the Dutch.

I launched all sorts of counterattacks as the Allies. Drafting and not building unnecessary units is the key. I never built a ship or plane unit regardless of civ I played (Japan or any of the Allies), only ground units. Also, I didn't see much need for tech research in the game so I keep tech research low and use the extra gold to cash rush.

	05-12-2003 14:08									#15
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struggle for the Allies?

not as the human player.

True I only played Regent level, but I easily, not only easily, but very easily won. And the production is amazing of the U.S. cities- especially when they grow and you improve terrain. One thing I did do was shell out some workers. I used Porland- they can shell out workers 1 a turn!. build some mines, roads, and railroads- you will see your production shoot up.

Beating the the Japanese AI playing as the U.S. should be no problem. Because the AI has no concept of naval sea dominance. After the initial onslaught the AI played conservative and concentrated on China. They had no idea how to defend against my island hopping.

Now I won't comment on human vs. human. That may be different.

	05-12-2003 17:51									#16
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I played one turn as the US, and watched as Yamamoto attacked Midway instead of Pearl Harbor.

Hmmmmm.....

I restarted as the Japanese, and found that reproducing Pearl Harbor in Civ is almost impossible. Bombers destroy buildings before anything else, leaving the Pacific Fleet undamaged and ready to sink your attack fleet!

	06-12-2003 01:40									#17
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quote: Originally posted by justjake73 I played one turn as the US, and watched as Yamamoto attacked Midway instead of Pearl Harbor. Hmmmmm..... I restarted as the Japanese, and found that reproducing Pearl Harbor in Civ is almost impossible. Bombers destroy buildings before anything else, leaving the Pacific Fleet undamaged and ready to sink your attack fleet!

You can move your fleet in close enough to bombard Pearl Harbor, and if you coordinate the attack correctly, wipe out a lot of the US fleet. Staying for a second or third turn can work wonders as well.

	06-12-2003 08:03									#18
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Just build ground troops with the Americans?

Why?????

They start off with ONE stinking transport.

The game is ONLY 50 turns long

Sure production could be increased but it SHOULD be at a much higher level even if the game started in 1940.

They can't even buid marines at the start even though the marine corps has been around only since 1777! and have conducted Amphibious Assaults as early as 1814.

Is it possible to win? well may be it is (It doesn't seem like it to me but I respect the players who claim to have done so) but my question is why should I even try? The scenerio is just too dissatisfying for me to play more han 5 turns.

Krings tactic's of bombarding Pearl with the Japanese surface fleet is but one of many examples, I could list 20 or 30 problems with this scenerio, but I'll leave it be.

	06-12-2003 13:52									#19
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First of all the american production was very poor in 1941. In real life it did take a long time to get going. Though by the end they were turning out like insane numbers of ships. I can't remember the exact numbers. But I think they were producing destoryers in a matter of days!!

That one transport can carry 4 units. These four units were enough to take my first VP location- it was a Japanese held island south/SE of midway I believe- supported by naval bombardment of course.

I agree about the marines. The U.S. should start with some- and start with the amphibious warfare tech as well.

50 turns doesn't seem like a long time, but you don't need that many VP locations. Taking all the japanese islands will easily be enough. You can build a transport in 1 or 2 turns in Portland- this is on Regent level and after some terrain improvements. I haven't played the game above emporer level, but other people have, and have won.

	07-12-2003 13:09									#20
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The other thread reminded me. Paratroopers.

These come in handy in the WW2 pacific scenario. Yeah sure my tanks and marines did all the dirty work (actually my air power and naval power did much of the dirty work). But paratroopers do help in the late stages of this scenario in getting troops quickly accross the water when transports won't have enough time to get anywhere before the game ends.

	07-12-2003 22:42									#21
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I paid hard cash to build an airport in manilla asap. then i started to create loads of infantry (combat engineers, gi's) in the mainland, then i would airlift em all to manilla and launch transports from there. I had to base a lot of fighter protection in manilla too, but it became the decisive factor in the campaign, the japs just kept on trying to hit me with all they got in manilla and seemed to forget everything else.

	08-12-2003 03:29									#22
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me too. they really wanted Manila and ignored all my island hopping I was doing.

their other attention was towards the mainland. They did have some success there- taking both singapore and Hong Kong and 1 or 2 chinese cities. But it took them too long to do that.

	08-12-2003 19:46									#23
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I don't think AI wanted Manilla enough.

What I saw from AI was:
1. quick hit at Pearl and then navy rarely seen
2. heavy concentration on Mainland
3. some interest in Manilla but no heavy assults.

MacArthur got kicked out of Phillipines. It would have
been better to have Phillipines fall and extend the
game to 75 turns. Too many players, myself included,
quickly shored up Manilla and then used AirLifts.

== PF

	08-12-2003 20:52									#24
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The Ai's obsession with Manilla was a theme in my game as well, but lets face it is far from the only problem.

The thing that makes this scenerio so implausible; so horridly unplayable to me; is the fact that Airpower is completely irrelevent in the game. This is a theater of operation where airpower was the key decision maker from the first day of the war to the last. Its the same as if a European scenario made armor irrelevent.

For me i'll pass on the Pacific scenerio; if I want to recreate WW2 in the pacific I'll just play PTO 2 for the 1 billionth time (even with its terrible AI, its still 100 X's more satisfying than this scenerio)

	08-12-2003 21:13									#25
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PTO == Pacific Theatre Operations ??

Guess I need a WW2 game, which are the best choices today?

== PF

	09-12-2003 00:14									#26
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I didn't find air power irrevelent. I found it very necessary.

The Ai's planes were tearing up my ships in the open sea. I couldnt' even approach their fleet with my battleships. Only after I got my carriers in position could I do anything to their fleet.

battleships are not so great in this game. I mainly used them for escorts and bombarding.

	09-12-2003 08:24									#27
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Air power needs ground support (like in real life!). If you bomb a city mercilessly, but don't take it, its units heal up.

	11-12-2003 18:39									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I didn't find air power irrevelent. I found it very necessary. The Ai's planes were tearing up my ships in the open sea. I couldnt' even approach their fleet with my battleships. Only after I got my carriers in position could I do anything to their fleet. battleships are not so great in this game. I mainly used them for escorts and bombarding.

I found it irrlevent. let me esplain....

Tried the scenerio 3 times. (it turned out the same all three times

Turn 1: Japanese bomb Pearl ccausing little if any damage; they capture Appari, Hong Kong and Guam.

Turn 2-3: I fix the japanese fleet with a recon from Midway (OK airpower is not completly useless) . and I attack the fleet with BB's and Sub's. I do get on CVBG into the action but its screen of 2 cruisers and a destroyer does more damage. In the end I tend to get about half of their fleet and between 2-4 carriers. In manila I can usually kill off another 2-4 fleet units with the small fleet there and the sub's and artilley around there. From then on the Japanese navy is largely defeated.

Turn 4-5: Fleet heals up in Pearl the rest of the CV's start to arrive in the Hawiian theater. More action in Manilla. Lose the rest of the fleet based there. My one transport arrives in Hawaii. I realize then that I still have to research Amphibious Assault and that its April 1942......

Then the game gets really boring and tedious. I haven't built a plane, and I can't invade any targets that I need to. Portland is just finishing its CA and then I realize that SF isn't producing anythng worthwile and I have to remind myself that it doesn't have a factory.........................

Planetfall:

PTO is indeed Pacific THeater of Operations. Konami produced it for the Super Nintendo. PTO 2 was produced for the Sega Saturn. In the game the AI places too much emphasis on capturing a base and does not pay proper attention to a fleet if its present at a targeted base. Even with those glaring flaws, I still prefer it to this scenerio. It is a dated game, and it is not recommended for the casual gamer. As for any new Pacific games, I am not aware of any which is one reason that PTO has stayed on my playlist for so long.

	11-12-2003 19:39									#29
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Mad Bomber,

Thanks for the update. If you find any good WWII games, please PM me.

-- PF

	12-12-2003 12:34									#30
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I can't see how you defeated all those units.

my battleships were green and regulars. They couldn't even take a heavy cruiseer!!

and the fleet around the philappines is completely useless as well. The best they can do is maybe- maybe take a submarine. The second time I played I retreated those ships to the south and regrouped with my main force.

I tried taking my battleships and attacking the japanese fleet near pearl harbour at about turn 3. I didn't sink any carriers, and I lost a couple of battleships. I did scare them off though, and the sad thing is they never kept their ships on the open seas after that point.