06-12-2003 04:49									#61
	Suffering from ads?

quote: It's human nature to explore. You may as well spend the money sooner rather than later.

I think we should double NASA funding at least, and get a few more explorations up there .

	06-12-2003 04:49									#62
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think further exploration with the intent of establishing a colony on the moon (and eventually, set our sights on mars) is the way to go!

However, I think private enterprises will do it better, for cheaper, so if we REALLY want to get serious about this space exploration stuff, let them do it, and then the government can waste it's (err, my) money on other things that will make the liberals happy too.

	06-12-2003 04:51									#63
	Suffering from ads?

quote: I think private enterprises will do it better, for cheaper, so if we REALLY want to get serious about this space exploration stuff, let them do it

The main problem is finding a private enterprise to DO IT! Big costs, little reward... why would anyone want to get into that?

	06-12-2003 04:52									#64
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: The main problem is finding a private enterprise to DO IT! Big costs, little reward... why would anyone want to get into that?

the last time i did any looking into this online, it seemed there were several that were interested . . .

anyway, i'd phrase it more like "big costs, big risks, potentially HUGE rewards." i don't think it's even possible to judge how possibly huge they might be.

i'm pretty sure that all the government would have to say is. . . "ok, you may. last one there is a rotten egg" and they'd be off and running.

	06-12-2003 05:02									#65
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc NASA must make an expedition to Europa and see if there is any life in the ocean under the frozen ice surface. If there is anything can happen.

Totally agree. A landing on Europa is mandatory!

	06-12-2003 05:08									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Can you really not understand this? Hint: It's a lifeless rock covered in dust. What's to explore? Dear lord, you'll support anything Bush comes up with, won't you?

Boris, I was in grade school when the Russians and Americans raced to launch the first sattelite into space. We lost. I remember the next race was to orbit the first man. We lost. Our failures in the space race were a contributing factor in Kennedy's election. Kennedy then promised boldly to place a man on the moon and return him safely before the decade was out. Now THAT was inspirational. THAT was was glorious. What pride and ambition it created in America. It gave us all hope for the future and for mankind.

If you were not there to experience the prior humiliations and the greatness and hope that Kennedy's speech gave us, you can never understand how I feel about this.

	06-12-2003 05:14									#67
	Increase the size of your Attachments

sometimes you gotta be second to drive you into first

	06-12-2003 05:17									#68
	Full PM-box? Change here!

MRT144, American hate being second. I can tell you that for a fact because of the dynamics of the 1960 election.

	06-12-2003 05:18									#69
	Tired of ads?

If this has been mentioned or spoken about before, I apologize in advance..

I just heard on the radio in a 'teaser/hook' that Bush was expected to hold on the anniversary of the Wright Bros. flight, or something along those lines, a speech over his plans for the space program, including an announcement that we will land on the moon again, soon.

	06-12-2003 05:30									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I know Ned, but what im getting at is that sometimes you need to fail before you can succeed. Sometimes you need a kick in the pants to get you to where you need to be. Would we have pressed so hard had we been first in space, first to orbit? maybe not.

	06-12-2003 06:19									#71
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

MRT, you are obviously right. And, there is no doubt that our current return to the moon has more to do with the Chinese space program than with the failure of the Shuttle program.

	06-12-2003 06:32									#72
	Remove this text

i really do hope bush means it. but like i said, looking at his previous scientific intiatives, i'm doubtful about his will to do this.

this is another good thing to come out of the chinese space program. now if only korea would develop one, and if only japanese naxa could get off the ground...

	06-12-2003 07:06									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed i really do hope bush means it. but like i said, looking at his previous scientific intiatives, i'm doubtful about his will to do this.

This would have nothing to do with science. This is all about making sure those upstart Chinese wannabes know their place.

	06-12-2003 07:23									#74
	Tired of ads?

Verto, space exploration has a lot to do with science because it pushes the technological envelope. We have no idea now how to stay in deep space for extended periods of time due to radiation. Solving that problem will undoubtedly bring many technological benefits. We also do not know how to make machines extremely reliable so as to last as long as necessary in deep space. Solving that problem will help increase the lifetime of machines generally. (Teflon was a space lubrication invention.)

Did you know that communications with deep space probes caused a general increase in the reliability of all communications due to error correction techniques.

I could go on and on. But it is overwhelmingly clear that the push for manned space exploration will have tremendous benefits for science and technology.

	06-12-2003 07:24									#75
	Tired of ads?

It was just a joke. And, evidently, a bad one if no one got it.

I will make sure to use smilies in abundance, from now on.

	06-12-2003 12:25									#76
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Don't any of you have any pride in being a human? Don't you want to see us spread and survive!?? Geeze, if you guys had been around in 1492, the Americas would be a wildlife preserve.

no, the americas would belong to their rightful owners.

	06-12-2003 12:27									#77
	Got spare money?

Yep, I'm sure the rights of those moon natives will be a HUGE concern

	06-12-2003 12:29									#78
	Support Apolyton

and the moon is a lifeless rock. I have been there.

Recently (within the past few weeks- check CNN.com space section) it was revealed that the moon has less water than was previously believed. Probalby not enough to support moon bases. Most of the water would be in frozen flakes intermixed with the dirt.

The moon has no value.

Mining on the moon . Do you guys realize how expensive that would be? Yes an automobile would cost $300,000 instead of $15,000- yes brilliant. but at least we wouldn't be tearing up our own planet.

	06-12-2003 12:31									#79
	Increase Your PM Length

The moon could provide a good site for a space shipyard - there's some gravity, which is useful so that people can stay there for long periods of time, but there isn't enough gravity to make it unprofitable to move the ship out of its gravity well.

	06-12-2003 12:42									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I haven't seen that report. But there does seem to be a lot of hydrogen at the poles. The dirt has oxygen. We could make water.

	06-12-2003 13:09									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The only problem with a moon base it would be more complicated than a base in orbit. Why not just create the base in orbit? There are some basic elements on the moon, but you would have to create large facilities to extract anything driving the cost higher than using orbit to launch space ships.

launching from orbit is the way to go.

	06-12-2003 13:18									#82
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I would like to see us attempt, within the next few decades, a base on the moon. It would be kind of like baby steps: maintain a near-earth space station, then a relatively close colony, then a more distant colony (say, mars). All of this will, of course, be immensely expensive. Even just a moon colony would provide an incentive for better propulsion, communication, and shielding technologies.

	06-12-2003 13:52									#83
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

More pragmatically, space program funding is also a big plus with states where the space program is a big industry, such as Florida... With butterfly ballots gone, Dubya gotta come up with some new ideas.

	06-12-2003 14:11									#84
	Inflate your Upload Space

screw the moon, I do support a mars misison...eventually. But to make one by 2020 is just too soon. 2050 is a more realistic goal.

	06-12-2003 14:17									#85
	Suffering from ads?

@private enterprise. Space can become profitable, but it needs enormous starting capital investment. Like comms satellites built after years of various government space projects.

The whole Helium-3 Fusion reactor idea seems very interesting to me, for example. If we could do it with this single industry, more would follow. IIRC, Helium-3 reactions are already very profitable, even with current reactor technology. The problem is, of course, the lack of helium-3.

	06-12-2003 14:46									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

17 years is more than enough time. From satellite to moon landing took only 12 years, and back then all calculations had to be done the hard way!

47 years ain't a challenge at all.

	06-12-2003 14:48									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

this is exponentially more challenging

sure we have calculators and computers. But we still rely on 50's era technology to get into space!!

	06-12-2003 15:17									#88
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I don't know about that, Dis. I think we know an awful lot more about composite materials, buckyballs and control systems than we did then. We should be able to build much better rockets and space vehicles.

The significant problems still lie in radiation shielding, especially for humans.

	06-12-2003 19:40									#89
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Eli This international law denies one of the most effective incentives for space exploration because of some nice-cozy-fluffy dream. Do you really think that when there will be lots of human presence in space no one will introduce weapons? Violence will go wherever humans go. Space, like everything else, will be weaponized eventualy and such policies only hinder our progress. Slightly paraphrasing Col. Corazon Santiago (SMAC seems to have a quote for everything ) : "Man has killed man from the beginning of time, and each new frontier has brought new ways and new places to die. Why would the future be different?"

Do you think that the human race will benefit from having nuclear weapons platforms in orbit and on the moon's surface? The existence of such weapons increases the chance for the extinction of the human race, and cannot be reasonably described as progress. There's also more chance of mechanical failure in space.

There's no incentive to build weapons in space, period. There's no enemy to justify the weapons system. The only reason to build weapons in space is an addiction to weapons. If there was a cult that liked to cover everything in sombreros, they would probably justify putting a giant sombrero on the moon by claiming that it would yeild spin-off technologies and that it was 'inevitable'.

Sure weapons will probably get into space eventually. But we should try to keep it clean as long as possible, and we should never let the generals run rampant with their addiction.

	06-12-2003 19:58									#90
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Ned I don't know about that, Dis. I think we know an awful lot more about composite materials, buckyballs and control systems than we did then. We should be able to build much better rockets and space vehicles. The significant problems still lie in radiation shielding, especially for humans.

That's why we send monkeys.