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MOBIUS
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Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:32
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Too many Iraqi civilians are dying from U.S. soldiers sometimes resorting to deadly force in a reckless and indiscriminate way...
Iraq: U.S. Military Responses Imperil Journalists
quote:
Dana was the 12th journalist killed in action in Iraq since the beginning of the war in March, according to the New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists. Five of these deaths were from U.S. fire. |
I know the job is dangerous - but for crying out loud!
This reminds me of the most lethal recorded friendly fire incident of the war...
In the line of fire
The convoy attacked was in the open in well marked non military vehicles...
Still, that is only journos after all...
Iraqi Civilians Fall Victim to Hair Triggers
If you're REALLY keen...!
quote:
But that doesn't mean that coalition forces should be allowed to operate with near total impunity, as they currently are. They are exempt from Iraqi law, and the military is not adequately investigating allegations of abuse. Thus far, the military has publicly announced only five completed investigations into civilian deaths in Iraq. In each case, the soldiers who fired were found to have operated within the rules of engagement.
I re-investigated two of the five incidents and found evidence to suggest the contrary -- that, in fact, excessive force had been used. In one, which occurred Aug. 9, soldiers from the 1st Armored Division mistakenly shot at an unmarked Iraqi police car as it chased criminals in a van. The Americans killed two Iraqi police officers. A witness said one of the officers was killed after he had stepped out of his car with his hands raised, shouting "No -- police!" A third police officer in the car was beaten by the Americans. |
'Within the rules of engagement!!?'
The point is that if the US isn't going to accept the Intl War Crimes treaty (apparently with good reason!), then it MUST deal with its troops instead of whitewashing every friendly fire incident there is and letting the killers off scott free! If soldiers knew they could be punished for such negligence - perhaps less innocent people would die?
quote:
But this is not about money. The excessive behavior of American soldiers is creating animosity at least, and possibly even new recruits for the resistance. Not only individuals but whole tribes are swearing revenge, according to the interviews we conducted.
I met many Iraqis during my visit who were hopeful the U.S. would help build a democratic Iraq. But many were dismayed by the cultural insensitivity and aggression of some U.S. troops that were alienating Iraqis day by day. |
Perhaps less US troops would die too...
This is probably the biggest blindside of the US forces there is - they seem incapable of dealing with this kind of operation...
There needs to be training - all UK troops are trained in this manner, and greater accountability for the consequences of such actions!
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:32
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I'd like to remind you, that US troops are in a big city, active war part over, with resistance attacking many times every single day. People are questioning the whole thing all over the world, it's hot, a long way from home, appx 2 soldiers dying every day. You can't see the enemy, yet it attacks you daily. It has shown capabilities from executing textbook ambushes on road all the way to taking down choppers, and it is yet to see how capable they really are as they grow more relaxed in their thing, and more experienced.
Many of them have a situation where it is damned if you do, damned if you don't.
From what I see, they are still doing an excellent job. Casualties are piling up, civilian as well. But, looking at the situation as a whole, I don't think they are doing any worse job than others have done in the past, and that they are still operating in the level of professionalism.
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MOBIUS
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Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Defiant
MOBIUS, This is what they need to do, they need to get the Iraqi Police force and military running fast. |
Um, is that the Iraqi police force being gunned down for trying to do its job?
Did you read that account - one officer was executed after he surrendered!
But this was apparently 'within the rules of engagement'... Where are these rules - I doubt they say it is OK to execute members of your own side surrendering to you?
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Put them in the line of fire to quell their own people and the US maintains a supervisory role to make sure the Iraqi Police and military are within their limits. |
I agree wholeheartedly with you - but this was botched from the beginning, starting with disbanding the Iraqi army...
quote:
You are right the US military is not designed to handle policing affairs it is for police. They are offensive in nature, not sitting duck forces. |
Perhaps the US military should take a leaf out of the British Army's book - this to me is an unacceptable state of affairs considering that this is precisely the type of training that is needed if the US wants to fight these types of wars...
quote:
And, civilian deaths need to be defined, in the latest ambush where 54 iraqis apparently died, the so called civilians picked up weapons and started firing on our troops
Even if I had Sava next to me in my patrol and I saw a civilian grab their assault rifle and aim at Sava, I would shoot the "civilian". |
So would I, civilians will die in combat zones - that is an unfortunate fact.
The point is that although many civilian deaths cannot be helped - some can!
Those are the deaths I have a problem with - where there is a clear case of culpability on the part of the US soldiers. Like the police incident outlined above...
There needs to be some accountability.
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MOBIUS
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Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Defiant
MOBIUS, First it is a war, obvious I know. |
Without wishing to sound pedantic, the war ended on May 1st because Bush said so...
But I do know what you mean.
quote:
And the accountability is by the nation who commands the forces and that nation answers to the world if they indeed want to. No other force can measure our troops during a war. |
I am actually inclined to believe you there in the first instance - but only if that nation properly accounts for its own troops and that is the worrying part of the US not signing that treaty. Also, that statement of yours could bring into question the trials of obvious war criminals 'only following orders' - common sense should prevail.
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There are always "criminals" in the military, like anywhere else that get off on killing no matter what, we just hope to weed them out or arrest them and deal with them. |
Which is why they need to be dealt with - the only punishments I have heard of so far was some soldier running off to marry his Iraqi bride!
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As for the police force, some of our boys have been put into unneccessary danger because of "traitors" within the police and military forces and that is another concern for the USA when granting these individuals with weapons and police powers, need to make sure they really are the good guys. |
A real problem - which is why US forces (and Iraqi) need to be properly trained and accountable.
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This kind of war is new for the USA and maybe the world and it is an extremely tough war to win but we have to. We will adapt, and overcome and perservere(sp), gotta love Clint Eastwood. |
By my reckoning they have had at least a year to train their soldiers in this form of war and probably longer.
The thing is that if the Iraqis saw that there was proper justice, perhaps less of them might sign up to the resistance movement and less US soldiers might be in the line of fire.
What people like Arrian seem to ignore is the fact that what I am calling for might actually save US soldiers lives in the long run - sure that would be a sentiment that even he would agree with?
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Caligastia
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I'm not there, so I can't judge. I'd say they are probably trying to make the best of a bad situation. Your thread title is awful BTW. You make it sound like US troops are just indiscriminately killing Iraqis for the fun of it.
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Tripledoc
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The problem is that I presume many American soldiers are frustrated and angry by what the current administration had promised, a quick victory and subsequent liberation, has not materialized. The administration used the oldest trick in the book to force soldiers to fight. As described in Sun Tzu one has to trick soldiers in a position where they cannot retreat and where the only option is to fight, otherwise they will not fight. Therefore Iraq is a de facto battlefield and on a battlefield people die, soldiers and civilians alike. And there cannot be any retreat, since that would mean defeat. The confusion arises from the administrations entirely political decision to declare the war over. And the press has since been trying to explain that the war is in fact not over. If it was still officially a war my guess would be that the civilian casualties would not be such an issue. After all many more civilians died during the invasion than has since died. This explains why the American military will never wage a succesful campaign against any poor nation. Since what is in fact war will for political reasons be described as peace to the domestic audience.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by MOBIUS
Now, before you go puttin' words in my mouth, I was only saying an unspecified number were out of control |
In any army there will be an unspecified number who will be out of control. I would be more inclined to criticise the behaviour of those who have been attacking US troops. Surely they are more 'out of control' than the blokes in the US army.
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06-12-2003 00:25
Sorry, that's kinda an ironic statement. 'I expected better than personal insults from A, but I'll just levy a personal insult at B instead' 
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