11-12-2003 07:53									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten He did create much of the modern conservative movement.

And? There were guys who created the whigs..and they aren't in the money. Goldwater did more than Reagan in creating that movement.

quote: I don't want Reagan to be put on any coins. I was just opposing the FDR cult of personality that seems to whitewash all the bad stuff he did as president. He's no better than Reagan.

What the hell are you talking about? Who has been whitewashing his precidency? how have I done it? You really have to stop making up what other people say in your own mind. All great men do bad things-there are no saints, and no one has said FDR was a saint. BUt he was a far greater man than Reagan, did far more to shape the country and create a legacy that still shapes our lives. He was a great man in all sense of the word, and in that,he deserves on be on US currency a hundread times over before they even consider Reagan.

There is little comparison between the two men in terms of greateness. FDR is up there wth Lincoln and Washington. Only in the mind of partisans is Reagan anywhere near that group.

	11-12-2003 09:02									#152
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GePap -- FDR ordered the forced relocation of Japanese American citizens.

HELLO!!!!

	11-12-2003 09:22									#153
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Lincoln used the army to attack strikers, massacred Amerindians in Colorado, imprisoned thousands without due process, etc.. And Washington passed the fugitive slave act, tried to crush the Hatian revolutionaries, etc. What's your point?

	11-12-2003 09:56									#154
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quote: GePap -- FDR ordered the forced relocation of Japanese American citizens. HELLO!!!!

He also tried to pack the Supreme Court, violated the longstanding tradition of presidents only serving two terms and subverted the Constitution more than any president since Lincoln, to name a few more things.

You're right, GePap, Reagan just can't compare to FDR...

	11-12-2003 10:44									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Lincoln used the army to attack strikers, massacred Amerindians in Colorado, imprisoned thousands without due process, etc.. And Washington passed the fugitive slave act, tried to crush the Hatian revolutionaries, etc. What's your point?

ACK -- never mind

	12-12-2003 04:26									#156
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun GePap -- FDR ordered the forced relocation of Japanese American citizens. HELLO!!!!

So? The greatness of a man is based on what he did, and its legacy. Many early presidents owned slaves-you know what, they were still great..sorry, but having done immoral things does NOT disqualify one from Greatness.

quote: He also tried to pack the Supreme Court, violated the longstanding tradition of presidents only serving two terms and subverted the Constitution more than any president since Lincoln, to name a few more things. You're right, GePap, Reagan just can't compare to FDR...

He created Social security and with it the modern era of the Federal government and involvement in American life: that single act (well, not a single act but a series of similar actions that lead there) mean that our lives as Americans are still influenced and touched daily by what he did, and will for decades at least-NOTHING Reagan did comes even close.

You fall under the same delusion as MrFun-that having done something bad diminishes ones greatness-well, wake up- Greatness is a measure of achievement and influence, not morality. A saintly man is not a great man necessarily, and vice versa.

As for most of whatr you say: 1. Traditions aren't laws, and the republicans trully screwed themselves by writing that consitutional ammendment- if people want to vote for someone indefinitelly, who are you to decide for them- of all limits of freedom, limits on sufferage are the worst, bar none. 2. That he "violated" the constitution is a value call, not a historical reality-and thus irrelevant to the discussion. As for trying to pack the Supreme Court, yes, that was one of his great failures and mistakes- and it is for great men to make great blunders as well.

Ask 1000 American historians for the most important president of the 20th century, and I am willing to bet money that FDR comes out on top, and by very wide margins.

	12-12-2003 08:55									#157
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quote: He created Social security and with it the modern era of the Federal government and involvement in American life: that single act (well, not a single act but a series of similar actions that lead there) mean that our lives as Americans are still influenced and touched daily by what he did, and will for decades at least-NOTHING Reagan did comes even close.

You say that like it's a bad thing. Personally, I say kudos to Reagan for not saddling the American people with a horribly flawed yet practically impossible to remove social program that will be a burden on young taxpayers for generation to come. Way to go, Dutch.

	12-12-2003 10:43									#158
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quote: Goldwater did more than Reagan in creating that movement.

Only in the sense that More did more (pardon the pun ) than Marx in creating the modern Communist movement. Without Reagan, Goldwater may have had absolutely no influence on American politics today (some on the left may say that isn't a bad thing though). He was considered a fringe guy. The Republican party lurched back to the middle with Nixon and Ford. Reagan brought Goldwater-ism back.

	12-12-2003 11:31									#159
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quote: Originally posted by GePap So? The greatness of a man is based on what he did, and its legacy. Many early presidents owned slaves-you know what, they were still great..sorry, but having done immoral things does NOT disqualify one from Greatness.

I guess I see your point.