06-12-2003 06:46									#1
	Babylonian Bowmen Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Babylonian bowmen always had a rough ride of it. An extra point that wasnt in their primary stat had them consigned to the C-list of UUs. Now Mayan Jav throwers have come along with the same stats, and they both have special abilitys.

There has been a lot of debate about the strength of the Mayan Javs, but I think the Bowmens rise to fame has been overlooked. Forget their 2 attack for a minute and focus on the fact they are now spearmen with 0 range bombard. Thats an awesome combination. A stack of these can ruin any attackers day as they get shredded before they can even hurt you.

Babylon not a mil civ? 3 HP bows deep in the stack can still contribute to the defense.

MP multiplys their usefulness as the different defensive bombard rules leads to attackers getting redlined before they can strike.

Ive always disliked the archer upgrade, but mixing in the resulting longbows greatly adds to the survivablity of your stack.

Ive been playing MP as Babylon and have been coming up against Maya all the time (civ of the month it seems). 9 times out of 10 I'm better off having my bows. Bows walk away from jav fights more often than not. Given the javs +50% cost, that enslave ability had better be good. Just how many workers can you enslave in a standard game?

	06-12-2003 11:18									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

apples and oranges

In the 'context' of a pure combat unit, and in the context of bowman vs Jav.... yes you are right. The bowman is a better unit, if nothing else by virtue of being more cost effcient. BUT only in that limited context.

However, the Jav is a unique UU! It is a utility unit. It opens up far more strategic and economic options for a player. A Mayan player that manages to enslave even as few as 3 or 4 barbs in the Ancient age, has created a significant advantage over his opponents. The effects of those handfull of workers are far reaching.... fewer workers created means a head start in creating a building or a wonder, it means a head start on generating combat units, it means a city keeps 1 or 2 more population which may translate into a won wonder race, or that crucial extra unit that decides the battle.... the effects can not be measured in a simplistic 'this UU vs that UU' statistical combat formula.

Now lets look at the effect of a Mayan that manages to crush a slow starting neighbor early on..... while this is an obvious advatage for any player .... it is ESPECIALLY an adavatage for the Jav driven Mayan warmonger..... the effects I gave you above for just 3 or 4 enslaved workers are now magnified 3 or 4 times over.

The net gain of a successful early Babylonian offensive or a successful Mayan one are not the same. All things being equal, the causaluties suffered, the number of cities taken, the number of turns it took...ect...the Mayans net gain is superior. The conquered slaves of the Mayans. are more numerous, and faster than those of the Babylonian. Spread this out over the course of an entire epic game, and you have a significant difference. If you were to add another successfull early Middle Ages war to this, and a race between a Bab and a Mayan would not even be close.

Ision

Last edited by Ision on 06-12-2003 at 14:57

	06-12-2003 16:35									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

What size maps are you playing on? I've not played a single SP epic game with conquests, so my experience comes from tiny/small MP maps. There are far fewer barbs to farm, the the opposition is not nearly as dumb.

quote: All things being equal, the causaluties suffered, the number of cities taken, the number of turns it took...ect...the Mayans net gain is superior.

The Mayans may get more workers but the Babs are going to outperform them in all of the above. A cheaper, tougher, more effective UU will allow conquest much quicker than you can as Maya. You simply cant mount as effective a Jav offensive as you can a Bow one.

The result of all this is that the Javs are fantastic at farming, but their UU is just second rate as an offensive unit. The ability for a UU to give a combat edge defines it, and that doesnt happen here.

If you want we can play a MP so I can show you Ision

	06-12-2003 23:58									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I think u missed his entire post, snotty.
He said that the bowman IS a better combat unit. However, the mayan JT can slave units into workers, which allows for more roadbuilding, irrigation, colonies, etc. I also assume that these workers are considered foreign, and require no upkeep? I don't have C3C.
Sounds pretty awesome to me.

	07-12-2003 00:23									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The bowman is a very good unit. It's dangerous in the hands of the AI and I wouldn't want to face it in MP. It would be deadly in the hands of a civ with different traits.

The problem is always how to use it as a religious and scientific civ. It's not just not being militaristic. Without the early advantages of expansionist, industrious or agricultural, it's hard to get a large enough force of bowmen together when you'd want it and in a way that wouldn't completely waste your GA.

If it weren't for cultural victory, Babylon would be a strong candidate for the worst civ. Their traits give no early advantage and later on you might only want to build one class of cheap buildings. If you can use the bowman well, you can make up for the first of these.

	07-12-2003 00:37									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Capturing cities gives a great boost to your civ, greater than slave workers I would say.

Due to the Bows being better in combat it is reasonable to assume they will have more succesful wars. These wars can be launched earlier (due to a cheaper UU and being all vet is less important), and have much greater survivability due to 0 range bombard.

Captured citys can then start churning out all the workers you need, and you will have free workers from your conquest. The Bows can pull this off faster so you get the benefit for longer. A Mayan player will have to be happy farming barbs while the Babs are off conquering.

Early Bow stacks are tough to deal with. With the MP multifire ability they have to be attacked with large stacks to minimize the effects of a pile of 0 range fire. Move and pillage, roam the hills, and watch as your opponent struggles to deal with it. Create all the breathing space you need.

I didn't originally intend this thread to become BB vs JT, it was more an effort to highlight the power of stacks of 0 range bombards in MP.

	07-12-2003 00:43									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I like both the Rel and Sci traits, especially since it got beefed. I use my freedom to hop gov as appropriate, and due to the MP norm of acc prod I often end up with more units than a republic would be happy with. Less players also means more chances at the 5% SGL. My view is probably twisted by the situations I use them in, but I imagine the benefit would pass onto SP as well.

	07-12-2003 02:13									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

hmmm...I guess I need to get C3C.

	10-12-2003 02:12									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Bowman is not all that bad. Although you will almost certainly waste your GA with it, you should by all means go for it. Same cost as Archers but with Spearman defense means they are the only thing you build for quite some time. I use them to quickly take and hold a small AI city for a few turns, enough to get a peace treaty with a tech or two. Go after the crappy, unconnected AI cities surrounded by hills and mountains and they will do well. A lone Bowman is also a good pillager to keep your neighbor from utilizing his iron, gold or even horses - until you move in to take it of course.