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Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > PervetedJustice.com- Online Vigilanateeism for the 21st century
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Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 12:09
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PervetedJustice.com- Online Vigilanateeism for the 21st century Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

www.perverted-justice.com

Found this site linked on www.collegehumor.com Apparently, what they do is go on chat rooms pretending to be a pre-teen/teen child. They then wait for older guys(pedophiles) to message them, and they lead the guy on. If the guy tried to set up a real life meeting for sex, they proceed. They get the guy's phone number as well as whatever information the guy gives up. They then have one of the females who works on the site that sounds young call the phone number to verify that is the same person and that the person is interested in sex. If they are, they proceed with the sting. They take the information they have, and use methods to trace down more(usually tracing the phone number i think), and post the pedophile's photo, name, adress, and contact info(Phone number). The pedo is informed he is put on the site, and once he is up there the site's readers usually harass the person with multiple phone calls. They then use their detective skills to try to find out as many of the pedo's contacts as possible, employers, friends, family, neighbors, co-workers, etc. They then send them the chat log of the pedo trying to pick up the fake teen/pre-teen. It has been very effective in many cases, causing people to lose jobs, cause peoples wives to leave them, caused one person living with his parents to be kicked out of his house, etc.

People in favor of the website defend it, as only people who have tried to meet a minor for sex get posted and it is only fair to alert the pedo's community that he is there, and that it acts as a detterant against trolling for underage sex. Others claim this site just drives pedo's underground, that it does not respect due process, and that it ruins people's lives.

What do you guys think?

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 12:11
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quote:
Others claim this site just drives pedo's underground


Why is that a problem?

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 12:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
Others claim this site just drives pedo's underground


Why is that a problem?


they claim they can still operate from deeper underground, but they are harder to reach when there.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 12:17
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I don't see how someone can be "against" it. It's all perfectly within their rights.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 12:18
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quote:
they claim they can still operate from deeper underground, but they are harder to reach when there.


A rather dubious claim, but within the realm of possibilty. Of course, pushing the paedo's deeper underground would also make it harder for them to contact and molest children, which seems like a positive to me. They may be harder to catch whilst underground, but it will also be harder for them to molest children in the first place.

Kirnwaffen is offline Kirnwaffen
Warlord
Tryin' hard to chill in the city of Dis
Jul 2000
time: 22:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 12:20
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Tired of ads?

Whether it's right or not, I sense a lawsuit in the near future.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 12:24
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How? What could they sue for?

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 12:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirnwaffen
Whether it's right or not, I sense a lawsuit in the near future.


I am pretty sure it's legal what they do. All they do is post a conversation they themselves had, and inform other people they had this conversation. They had a guy from Harvard Law analyze the website as well as the ACLU and both have assured them what they are doing is legal.

DanielXY is offline DanielXY
Warlord
Germany
Dec 2002
time: 05:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 13:30
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If its right or wrong Really depends on their "Victims". No Problem if its the stereotypical 40y old guy wants to **** 12y old girl.
But since children is defined as anything below 18, there are cases where it would seem rediculous. Think 19 year old guy want to hook up with some 17 year old girl...

:) Smiley is offline :) Smiley
Emperor
USCA, Berkeley
Feb 2001
time: 21:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 13:45 Visit :) Smiley's homepage!
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This reminds me of the ppos who conned the Nigerian bank transfer guys and got 'em on tape

Japher is offline Japher
Prince
Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 13:48
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I think it's a great idea, still it's entrapment. Similar to cops posing as hookers... Perfectly legal, but still cops are particular about and don't encourage doubious behavior as that site sounds like it does.

monkspider is offline monkspider
King
banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 13:50
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I discovered this site about a week ago, and while in most cases they are finding some freaky people, there are a few that bother me by their approach.

Take this one for example. Some selected lines are below:

usmc_emt: is my age a problem?
sugar_n_spicy1990: how old r u?
usmc_emt: 27
sugar_n_spicy1990: nope lol my last bf was 25
[...]
usmc_emt: well you will get anythign you want hun
sugar_n_spicy1990: what if i want more
usmc_emt: you will get it
sugar_n_spicy1990: you would **** me? ((Might as well go for broke.))
usmc_emt: you want that?
sugar_n_spicy1990: mebbe. u?
usmc_emt: then I would ((Liftoff.))


This one, and a few like it bother me, in that the site "staffer" pretends to be an older-man loving girl. And brings up the subject of sex first. It just doesn't sit right. Also, if you look through their archives many of their "busts" are 18 or 19 year old "pedophiles" hitting on supposed 14 or 15 year old girls.

I am somewhat undecided about the whole thing really. In many ways the site just doesn't feel right. In fact, I am leaning more toward them being in the wrong at this point.

Winston is offline Winston
King
Danmark
Mar 1999
time: 06:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 13:54
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

From Shi's description, it sounds like just another excuse to be mean to others.

Why wouldn't they just proceed to hand over the information to the police?

Japher is offline Japher
Prince
Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 14:01
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Because they're vigilantee's... While I don't condone crimes, I also don't condone ppl taking the law into their own hands in a "street justice" fashion.

Theben is offline Theben
Emperor
Dance Dance for the Revolution!
Jan 1970
time: 00:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 14:02
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quote:
The pedo is informed he is put on the site, and once he is up there the site's readers usually harass the person with multiple phone calls.


I have a problem with this part.

quote:
Why wouldn't they just proceed to hand over the information to the police?


I 2nd this opinion.

monkspider is offline monkspider
King
banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 14:06
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Reading the FAQ it sounds like someone has been kicked out of their house, one has lost his job, and three others have lost girlfriends over "busts" conducted on the site. All without any semblance of due process.

The allegations leveled on the site are not things to be taken lightly.

Japher is offline Japher
Prince
Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 14:08
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It ain't wrong, but it sure ain't right.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 14:10
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I say: "go to the police"

Japher is offline Japher
Prince
Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 14:12
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yup, for real justice they need to get the law on their side. Good sting, bad execution.

Lazarus and the Gimp is offline Lazarus and the Gimp
King
Whale-raping abomination
Aug 2000
time: 05:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 15:16
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Here's one to ponder.

What if one of those people running that site had a grudge against you? What if they decided to post a malicious entry about you?

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
King
United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 15:26 Visit Gatekeeper's homepage!
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That's a very good point, Laz. It's one of the reasons why vigilantism — while seemingly a good thing on the surface — can backfire horribly. It's a human thing, it seems. But, boy, when the sh*t hits the fan, it's even worse when the one powering the fan is someone in a position of influence (i.e. a vigalante site).

My advice to them is simple: Tread carefully. Their goals are admirable ... but, boy, something just doesn't feel right about it. Must be that whole "live by the law" thing I have.

Gatekeeper

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 21:42
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"I think it's a great idea, still it's entrapment."

Actually it isn't, because first off only police officer can committ entrapment- vigilantes don't have to hold themselves to the same standards cops do. Also, it's not entrapment because they always let the guy IM first.

"This one, and a few like it bother me, in that the site "staffer" pretends to be an older-man loving girl. "

Well the idea is in to stop these people, since if they did run into an older-man loving girlthey would take advantage of her. Also I think most of the cases the pedo brings up the subject of sex first.


"Why wouldn't they just proceed to hand over the information to the police?"

Because, simply chatting someone up online is not a crime.

"What if they decided to post a malicious entry about you?"

They could, but it would be dangerous for the website to do so. For one, they publicly post the contact information and screenname. If anyone else on the site knew about the grudge, they might suspect something right there. Next, the phone numbers are usually verifired by someone different- one of the females on the site usually calls the number and verifies the number is real and the guy wants to do it, so I suppose one of the verifiers would have to be in on it.

Finally, if it were false, it would be extremely likely you would see a defamation lawsuit, which would mean the potential loss of alot of $, and could destroy the website's credibility. As far as I can tell, all of the site's staff not only respect their work but are highly fanatical about it, and wouldn't want to compromise it's integrity by something like that...

Q Cubed is offline Q Cubed
Prince
t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 21:49 Visit Q Cubed's homepage!
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quote:
If its right or wrong Really depends on their "Victims". No Problem if its the stereotypical 40y old guy wants to **** 12y old girl.
But since children is defined as anything below 18, there are cases where it would seem rediculous. Think 19 year old guy want to hook up with some 17 year old girl...

most states have "romeo and juliet" laws, iirc.

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
Prince
Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 22:20 Visit Whaleboy's homepage!
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I think its a great idea!!

Its perfectly within their rights, both legally and morally, and since one is not beating the paedophile physically, it cannot be vigilantism either. Call it prudent citizenship. Since the paedophile has done nothing strictly illegal (to my knowledge, though I know this varies, but morally of course having a conversation is fine), getting the police involved, but ruining his life by legitimate means is ok by me!

When one engages in a conversation on the internet, you are taking a risk that the person you are talking to isn't who they say they are. Part of that risk entails consequences such as these. If you want to **** little girls, then you should expect such consequences.

I dont think its driving them underground as such. Its closing an avenue they use, and will also close the route to "evening" paedo's, young men who do it for a laugh. For such people, who are disturbingly common, such an approach should encourage a drink-drive social acceptability thing, where advertising and conseqences convince people that this is wrong.

to the people that came up with this idea!

Jac de Molay is offline Jac de Molay
Prince
Detroit
Sep 2001
time: 05:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 22:28
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quote:
Its perfectly within their rights, both legally and morally, and since one is not beating the paedophile physically, it cannot be vigilantism either. Call it prudent citizenship.


How is it not vigilantism? They're essentially doing things reserved for police task forces?

quote:
Since the paedophile has done nothing strictly illegal (to my knowledge, though I know this varies, but morally of course having a conversation is fine), getting the police involved, but ruining his life by legitimate means is ok by me!



If he's done nothing strictly illegal, why is ruining his life legitimate?

Kirnwaffen is offline Kirnwaffen
Warlord
Tryin' hard to chill in the city of Dis
Jul 2000
time: 22:32
  Old Post 06-12-2003 23:03
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I'm certainly not a legal expert, but I believe that if one of the accused requested that the site remove his contact information, the site would be forced to do so, or face civil or even criminal harassment charges. Am I wrong?

Lazarus and the Gimp is offline Lazarus and the Gimp
King
Whale-raping abomination
Aug 2000
time: 05:32
  Old Post 07-12-2003 00:34
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A British tabloid has already done a "name and shame" of paedophiles.

As a result, at least one entirely innocent person had their house burnt down (they lived next door to the person named) and a Paediatrician was beaten up. Vigilate actions suck monstrously because people are too ****ing stupid to deal with them.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:32
  Old Post 07-12-2003 00:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Here's one to ponder.

What if one of those people running that site had a grudge against you? What if they decided to post a malicious entry about you?


This was to be my point. While I think pedophiles actively seeking sex with underage people get what they deserve, the potential for abuse in an unregulated vigilantee environment is too great.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:32
  Old Post 07-12-2003 01:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
"Why wouldn't they just proceed to hand over the information to the police?"

Because, simply chatting someone up online is not a crime.


It certainly is if within that chat one arranges for a sexual encounter with what they believe to be an underage person. The article you posted mentioned this is preceisely what they were doing, and how the site got the personal information in the first place.

They could certainly take transcripts of that chat to police, and it would be grounds for charges.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:32
  Old Post 07-12-2003 01:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher
Because they're vigilantee's... While I don't condone crimes, I also don't condone ppl taking the law into their own hands in a "street justice" fashion.


They AREN'T taking the law into their own hands - no punishment is meted out by them. They tell other people about what these people have said, which is their right, and other people act on that knowledge. No one goes to jail. Social repercussions for actions can not and should not be regulated.

 
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