09-12-2003 20:48									#31
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quote: Originally posted by ducki As someone that doesn't look that deeply into the numbers, I'd like to say that the research cost means almost nothing to me on the ToE-Hoover Express.

I came up with my initial proposal (tinkering with tech costs) because I was tempted in a few games to take The Corporation as a free tech, but in the end did not because of its lower tech cost. But you may be right and beelining for Hoover is still the best strategy if it means accepting a lot of wasted 'free' research.

This is why I like alexman's proposal even more the longer I think about it. If beelining for Hoover means foregoing a beeline to Motorized Transportation, the choice is much harder. (You may be the one that builds Hoover, but another player may take it away from you with a tank blitz.)

	10-12-2003 01:20									#32
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep (You may be the one that builds Hoover, but another player may take it away from you with a tank blitz.)

While I agree with that sentiment in spirit, I have a hard time believing the AI is going to muster a strong enough attack to get to and take my capital or one of it's immediate neighbors, as that's likely the only place I'll have the shields to actually build Hoover, short of a SGL.

If the AI destroys my core, I've got worse problems than losing Hoover.

I do see your point, though.

	10-12-2003 01:23									#33
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It's not only about the AI. It's about giving the human player a choice. Do you want the ToE and Hoover, or do you want to get to Tanks before your AI neighbor gets Infantry, for example?

	10-12-2003 01:44									#34
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quote: Originally posted by ducki If the AI destroys my core, I've got worse problems than losing Hoover. I do see your point, though.

OK, losing Hoover may have been an exaggeration, so I'll put it another way: If I'm in the early Industrial age and there are still potent AI civs left (happens most of the time when I'm playing Monarch) and these civs are on a par with me tech-wise and can muster a land-based attack or a naval landing (happens quite some time when I'm playing Emperor) AND Electronics is not a prereq for Motorized Transportation, I'd rather not be the one that gets tanks with a 15-20 turn delay. I may not lose my core (and still posess Hoover), but my empire may be reduced to 60-70% of its former size after a successful AI tank blitz.

	10-12-2003 01:54									#35
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Ok, I get it.
My play style dictates a different decision - sticking with the Hoover Gambit, but that's part of what AU is all about - giving the player interesting choices.

Maybe I underestimate the AI or overestimate my military, but I just don't see the AI getting that froggy in 15-20 turns. I could be wrong, though.

	10-12-2003 02:09									#36
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A rifleman or an infantry doesn't differ enough from each other in front of tank attack, IMO.

BTW, today I finally see one AI beeline to Militarily Tradition. It was Byzantine with 6 city, sharing a small continent with Zulu and Carthage. Wars among them started at late ancient age and then never thoroughly ended. While France, who owned another small continent and was peace to all others, research Theology - Education - Astronomy as AI usually does in other game.
So I guess it is the continual war drove AI to beeline to Military Tradition, since AI doesn't seems to know predicting or planning wars. Without war, AI will research the upper branch, like France did in that game.

	10-12-2003 02:14									#37
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Soren confirmed a long time ago that the AI is responsive to its 'environment', in this case (or for most players' immeidate neighbors ): warfare.

	10-12-2003 02:16									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Risa A rifleman or an infantry doesn't differ enough from each other in front of tank attack, IMO.

A Veteran Tank wins 69% of the time against a fortified Rifleman in a city. It wins 42% of the time against Infantry in the same situation.

	10-12-2003 02:19									#39
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quote: Originally posted by ducki Maybe I underestimate the AI or overestimate my military, but I just don't see the AI getting that froggy in 15-20 turns. I could be wrong, though.

Or you could be a better player than I am.

One of the most interesting games I played (on Emperor - could make for a thread in the 'Stories' forum, but not right now) involved an AI that was notedly smaller than my empire, but very well developed and with a small tech lead. Our common land border was a chokepoint (the city had changed sides a few times, but was mine since the middle ages). I had Infantry, Cavalry and some forts. The AI got Motorized Transportation 8 turns before me, and started a tank attack a few turns later. I held the city until I could strike back with my own tanks, but another 10 turns without tanks would have been really nasty.

	11-12-2003 09:28									#40
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Now that we have a panel, we can start making decisions:

AU mod panel members, you have 24 hours to vote:

• "Yes" to remove prerequisite of Electronics from Motorized Transportation.
  
• "No" to make no change.
  

	11-12-2003 10:51									#41
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I'm also voting for YES.

	11-12-2003 18:26									#42
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YES.

	12-12-2003 00:59									#43
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Yes.

	12-12-2003 08:44									#44
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No!

Sorry, too big a change for me. The Theory of Evolution will be even more powerful, IMO, because it just puts you closer to an now-closer Motorized Transportation. What you guys are voting to create is an Industrial era Cavalry beeline (with Tanks). That's a major change to stock rules.

The Hoover Dam is not the reason to build the Theory of Evolution. I'm not really getting why you guys think this is true. You want to secure the ToE because it will keep you alive and ahead in the tech race. A proper fix, IMO, addresses the issue that the AI does not seem to think this is as big an advantage as the human players know it is.


Dominae

	12-12-2003 09:51									#45
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Even though the change already has the required votes (4), let me answer.

First of all, you can't compare a direct path to Motorized Transportation with the direct path to Military Tradition, because the former still involves almost the entire required tech tree.

The Theory evolution is powerful no matter what you do. Two free technologies in the Industrial Era are a huge deal. We are not trying to devalue the ToE, because we can't, unless we remove it from the age.

What we are trying to do is to give players more options in the Industial Age. Dominae, somewhere in the strategy forum there is a thread started by you, outlining in detail the exact research strategy that is best for this age. This is bad. There should be alternative viable research strategies depending on your goals, just like there are in the previous ages.

This change gives you a choice: will you use the ToE to get Hoover and be a good little builder, or will you decide to ride your Tanks to the dark side?

Put simply, using prebuilds, a determined human player reasonably close in technology to the AI will get the ToE, no matter how hard the AI tries. The question is what to do next? Previously, there was no choice. With this change, there is.

	12-12-2003 10:35									#46
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I understand your point, alexman, but I believe you've missed mine.

I agree that it's hard to "deal" with the Theory of Evolution, and that giving the human player more options is a good way to go. But the option you're opening up here, I believe we will find, is actually a no-brainer.

With two techs off the route to Motorized Transportation, it's obvious (to me) that the best play if you want to win is get the Theory of Evolution, then beeline to Tanks. You're sure to get there first, and earlier than you used to. This is because the AIs can sometimes actually catch up with you in tech when Motorized Transportation is two techs further away; in relatively close games, the Theory of Evolution does not guarantee military dominace with Tanks.

Let the AIs research for Hoover Dam! I'll just use my ToE powers to trade for Electronics, all the while plowing through to Motorized Transportation. And we all know what getting Tanks earlier means versus the AI (hint: it means you win).

This is too big a change to just throw in with all the rest. There has been very little discussion about it. I know we want to get a first version out ASAP (and I commend your efforts in this regard, alexman!), but changing the entire character of an era is not something we want to rush into (if at all).


Dominae

	12-12-2003 10:45									#47
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Basically what I'm trying to say is that there are many ways to tackle this problem, and we seem to be jumping on a very radical one very quickly. How about slowing it down a little and considering a few options? This thread has been in existence for only ~2 weeks!


Dominae

	12-12-2003 10:54									#48
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Now that I'm all passionate about this , here's another idea (based on alexman Airport idea): the Theory of Evolution requires a Police Station to build.

Forget for the moment the realism aspects of this (frankly, because it's not realistic at all). What does this do? Well, before you can build the Theory of Evolution, you need to: 1) acquire Communism, and 2) build a Police Station in the city where you'll want the ToE. The first point helps the AI because it loves Communism (it hurts the human player because we hate Communism!). The second point hurts the human player because it's that much harder to prebuild for the ToE.

The only potential problem with this (than I can see) is that hopefully the AI prioritizes Police Stations, because if not it will not get around to building the ToE very fast.

Thoughts?


Dominae

	12-12-2003 11:32									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Let the AIs research for Hoover Dam! I'll just use my ToE powers to trade for Electronics, all the while plowing through to Motorized Transportation.

OTOH, you could let the AIs research the 'upper' branch of the tech tree, use your ToE powers (Atomic Theory, Electronics) to trade for, say, The Corporation, Steel and Refining, and also plow through to Motorized Transportation. The difference to the stock version is, IMO, that you face a difficult choice (Hoover vs. Tanks) if your options to trade techs are more limited.

	12-12-2003 13:05									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae With two techs off the route to Motorized Transportation, it's obvious (to me) that the best play if you want to win is get the Theory of Evolution, then beeline to Tanks.

Besides what lockstep already mentioned about going for Electronics and using the AI to get the upper techs by trade, I can think of several other situations where you might want to choose the lower branch:
- You aim for a fast spaceship launch, and the lower branch offers the most expensive techs to choose to get for free.
- You aim for a spaceship launch, and you need the extra production of Hoover.
- You need many tanks, and the fastest way to get them is to use Hoover to boost your production. Unlike a Cavalry attack, you can't rely on upgrades to build Tanks, so a detour through Electronics might actually get you your Tanks faster, even if you delay getting Motorized Transportation.
- The AI you want to attack already has Infantry.

Having said all this, the ToE police station requirement is interesting, even though the effect on gameplay is not smaller than Motorized Transportation's change in prerequisites. It's just different.

	12-12-2003 20:21									#51
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It's a far more conservative change because: 1) it does not change the entire tech tree for the era, 2) it helps the AI, and 3) it makes ToE less powerful.

That's more the type of change I have in mind regarding the Industrial era in the AU mod. We can create new strategic decisions for the human player all we want, but the more we do so the further we go from stock. How about we make the upper branck of the Medieval era more attractive by changing the University cost to 120 Shields? Would that not then offer an incentive not to beeline for Cavalry?

quote: OTOH, you could let the AIs research the 'upper' branch of the tech tree, use your ToE powers (Atomic Theory, Electronics) to trade for, say, The Corporation, Steel and Refining, and also plow through to Motorized Transportation. The difference to the stock version is, IMO, that you face a difficult choice (Hoover vs. Tanks) if your options to trade techs are more limited.

Huh? This does not work. You want to beeline for Tanks, so you might as well take two techs along that path for free (even if they cost slightly less...two free techs typically puts most of AI gpt in your pockets). By waiting for the AI to research the techs for you, you further the date of world domination by Tanks.

---

It's a good point that the Electronics prerequisite version does present an interesting option in terms of the Spaceship. But look at what you're creating! Instead of saying: "The ToE is too powerful, let's make it a bit weaker for the human player", you're saying "The ToE is too powerful, let's at least let the human player translate this power into his or her choice of an easy victory." We can do better than that.

I'm a firm believer that in the best interests of the gameplay, a game should not be "over" in the Industrial era. Making the ToE more powerful obviously works against this.

In short, I disagree that both changes are "just different"; they're very different.


Dominae

	12-12-2003 20:42									#52
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Scientific Method and Medicine are now off the beeline for Tanks. So you don't gain anything in terms of speed towards Motorized Transportation by getting the ToE. Does that weaken the ToE enough for you?

Assuming you get the ToE, previously you had to research 12 techs (14-2) to get Tanks. Now you have to research 10. Is this really that much faster?

	12-12-2003 20:55									#53
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Yes.

The "detour" for ToE does indeed provide a jumpstart to Tanks, both in terms of absolute Beakers you need accumulate, and relative power of your research rate with that of the other civs.

Any way you look at it, you're making that strategy stronger. You're also leaving the ToE-Hoover route untouched, which we already agree is too strong as well (ironically enough, that's the point of this thread).

ToE needs to be weaker, because it supports both your strategic options. In this sense the Electronics prerequisite solution is not really a solution at all.


Dominae

	12-12-2003 21:01									#54
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I can't convince you. Oh, well... you'll see the light by playing, I guess!

	12-12-2003 21:04									#55
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I don't have a tech tree handy, so forgive any silliness...

What if ToE required Oil or Replaceable Parts or something else further along the tree? Or better yet, ToE requires a Hospital(I imagine research lab is too far away) Or a University(or 5)?

And then Hoovers requires a Hydro plant(that just seems obvious to me, and elegant, sensible) or some building/resource from the tank/ships line?

	12-12-2003 21:08									#56
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quote: Originally posted by alexman I can't convince you. Oh, well... you'll see the light by playing, I guess!

I still think we've rushed into this change (no, not only because I'm against it). Perhaps I could convince the panel to wait on this one?

Say it with feeling: the Theory of Evolution is too strong!


Dominae

	12-12-2003 21:09									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Say it with feeling: the Theory of Evolution is too strong!

That's why I went so far as suggesting we just remove it, and replace it with Longevity.

But I'm willing to try other solutions...

	12-12-2003 21:17									#58
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quote: Originally posted by ducki What if ToE required Oil or Replaceable Parts or something else further along the tree? Or better yet, ToE requires a Hospital(I imagine research lab is too far away) Or a University(or 5)?

What's wrong with my Police Station suggestion?

Just to reiterate:

1. It requires the human player to research or trade for some techs only prioritized by the AI. The AI already goes for Communism before Scientific Method.

2. It requires there be a Police Station in the Theory of Evolution city, drastically reducing the potency of a prebuild for that Wonder.

Put together, these things seriously slow down the human player's beeline for the Theory of Evolution, the net effect being that the AI has more of a fighting chance at that point in the game.

In terms of strategic options, there is nothing "new", but it sure changes the way you think about how to secure the ToE. Take a minute to think about it now...How would you do it? Research Scientific Method, prebuild the Theory of Evolution, and trade for Communism? Nope! Research Communism, build a Police Station...sounds a lot like something the AI likes to do! What about...

As you can see, it makes the early-Industrial a lot less obvious, and a lot less of a windfall for us humans.


Dominae

	12-12-2003 21:18									#59
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Wasn't this thread about weakening the Toe-Hoover beeline? I think the change to Motorized Transportation accomplishes this in a big way. It gives the age a major choice in research strategy, which wasn't there before.

If you want to weaken the ToE, that's a different issue, and we should have a new, independent proposal and vote.

	12-12-2003 21:19									#60
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Man, it's odd when I agree so wholeheartedly with Dominae, but I do.

ToE is woefully overpowered in the hands of the human. There's just no beating it.

Which brings me to Stuie's idea WRT to my previous post - the one that mentions ToE requiring Hospitals because Research labs are to far down the tree.

To me, combining those to ideas is perfect, if not a bit radical.

Move ToE to whichever tech has Research Labs.
Move Longevity to Sanitation or Scientific Method.
ToE requires 1(or 5) Labs.
Longevity Requires 1(or 5) Hospitals - maybe just one, since BM already requires 5.

You could still race to Hoover, but it's not a lock like it is with ToE.
You could still race to tanks, but again, it's not a lock like it is with ToE.

And with ToE that much later, it might be a nice boost to those games you just want to END or it might give the AI a chance at beating you to space(*gasp).


It's not often Dominae and I agree on AU mod issues. I take it as a sign that ...
ToE is overpowered and needs a serious modification to limit the human player's Slingshot to Victory.


Edit:

quote: Wasn't this thread about weakening the Toe-Hoover beeline? I think the change to Motorized Transportation accomplishes this in a big way. It gives the age a major choice in research strategy, which wasn't there before.

But that doesn't weaken the ToE-Hoover beeline.
It just creates two very strong ToE-* beelines, I think.
Yes, it does offer interesting decision for the player, but I think it still boils down to "I must have ToE so I can do X."
ToE-Hoover is overpowered because "I must have ToE." It's a non-choice. You'd be goofy not to get it at almost any cost.