06-12-2003 18:01									#1
	AU mod: The ToE - Hoover beeline Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The problem

While Civ3's first two ages provide some interesting research choices for the human player (e.g. following the monotheism line vs. the engineering line in the middle ages), at the beginning of the industrial age there's only one obvious choice: Beelining for Scientific Method and (pre-)building Theory of Evolution, then taking Atomic Theory and Electronics as free techs and building Hoover Dam. The typical ToE - Hoover beeline will involve researching the necessary techs plus Industrialization (for rushing a factory and a Coal Plant in the cities that will build the wonders), sometimes also plus Nationalism (if there's the threat of a cavalry attack by a powerful AI). After finishing Hoover, the human player normally has a huge production advantage and effectively won the game (that is, if he didn't already win by a cavalry blitz.)

Taking a closer look, the most unbalancing factor seems to be neither the possibility to get/enlarge a tech lead by building ToE (although this is a very attractive strategy) nor the option to use ToE's free techs for securing an advantage to build Hoover (although a free hydro plant in every city isn't that bad, either). The crucial point, IMO, are the tech costs. Atomic Theory and Electronics have costs of 200 and 180, and therefore are the most expensive techs that a player is likely to have as research options when he finishes ToE. (Radio, Flight and Advanced Flight are the only industrial techs that are also that expensive, and they show up much later in the tech tree). Choosing any techs but A.T./El. as free techs means wasting a huge amount of 'free' research, and therefore taking the A.T./El. route - and building Hoover - becomes the obvious choice. There are some alternatives that would be attractive in principle (e.g. going for The Corporation and building a lot of stock exchanges), but as long as there's the issue of 'wasted' free research, the human player will postpone these alternatives.

Possible Solution

Reduce the cost of Atomic Theory and Electronics by 60 each (A.T. from 200 to 140, El. from 180 to 120). Correspondingly, increase the costs of The Corporation and Replacable Parts by 60 each (C. from 100 to 160, R.P. from 140 to 200). This makes The Corporation (which gives stock exchanges) and Replacable Parts (which gives Infantry, Artillery and double worker speed) the two most expensive techs that a player can get for free with ToE. Now going for A.T./El. because of Hoover means wasting free research. This should make for some really interesting choices.

What do you think?

Last edited by lockstep on 06-12-2003 at 18:23

	06-12-2003 20:06									#2
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Good topic.

Given your solution, I think I'd take Replaceable Parts and Atomic Theory and then pour all my research into Electronics will doing a prebuild. Too bad the AI can't think like that.

I may get burned as a heretic, but what if we use the changes you suggest and slightly reduce the cost of ToE but only grant one tech instead of two? That way the tech advantage doesn't become so drastic.

Edit: Ok, I just noticed it's two or nothing in the editor. For seem reason I was thinking if Philosophy grants one, then a wonder could too.

Last edited by Stuie on 06-12-2003 at 20:13

	06-12-2003 20:15									#3
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A wonder that grants one free advance isn't possible with the current editor. (Philosophy grants a free advance, but it is a tech.)

EDIT: And yet another cross-post.

	06-12-2003 22:03									#4
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hm ..... you got me thinking. how about something more radical, like moving Scientific methods tech much earlier, say after Theory of Gravity, and make it non-compulsory to get to Industrial Age !

So, it becomes a trade-off. If you go for ToE, you get 2 Techs, likely to be Steam Engines, Nationalism (or Industralisation).

If you don't go for Scientific Methods, you can aim straight for Steam Engines.

	06-12-2003 23:15									#5
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I am already labled a heretic regarding the AU for suggesting radical changes, so it doesn't hurt me one twiddly to do it again:

Take out Hoover Dam altogether. The vast majority of the time the player gets it. It only makes the game that much easier.

Oh, and thanks for the inspiration!

	06-12-2003 23:40									#6
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It's not just that Atomic Theory and Electronics are more expensive, it's also that the AI didn't researched them. This meant that the ToE could allow a human who was far more than 2 techs behind the AI to trade back up to parity. This could be enough to secure the UN against bigger AIs if they are at war and so to win from a fair way behind.

In the PTW AU mod, we made tha AI more likely to research Atomic theory which was enough to hurt this if they are far enough ahead and give them a chance at Hoover in the same position.

The AI would still research Replaceable Parts with your change but I'm less sure about the Corporation. I doubt it would be a good idea if they all went down the Electronics branch first.

Maybe we could just do the change to Atomic Theory and Replaceable Parts? Then to get the best free techs, you'd have to research Atomic theory first which would mean delaying ToE. If the AI were strong, that might not be worth the risk.

	07-12-2003 01:51									#7
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I am not sure this is a big problem. If I build Hoover I think I deserve to win, it is the only way I can overcome the AI huge production advantage at Emporer or Diety....

	07-12-2003 03:53									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Nor Me Maybe we could just do the change to Atomic Theory and Replaceable Parts? Then to get the best free techs, you'd have to research Atomic theory first which would mean delaying ToE. If the AI were strong, that might not be worth the risk.

I wanted to do two things:

a) swapping tech costs so that going for Atomic Theory AND Electronics would mean a lot of wasted 'free' research,
b) avoiding a situation where it is easy for the player to research these techs WHILE he is building ToE.

Because of b), I didn't want to make A.T. as cheap as Sanitation - this is the tech I often research when I build ToE in my capital (and therefore can't use a palace pre-build). But if a player delays finishing the ToE on purpose and manages to research Atomic Theory, he should - im my opinion - still face 'wasted' research when choosing Electronics as one of the two free techs. That's why I proposed to also reduce the costs of El. vs. Replacable Parts (which is an obvious candidate for a cost increase) AND a second tech. For this, I chose The Corporation because it will almost always be available when ToE is finished.

	07-12-2003 04:57									#9
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every removed human exploit makes the AI need less cheating or starting advantages.

some of the worst exploits like RCP, polytheism gambits have been solved or at least weakened.
some just as bad exploits (eg. MT beelining, suicide galleys, resource bombarding, etc) are hopefully going to be solved with the AU mod.

this ToE==>Hoover Dam ('==>' is the mathematical sign for "implies" ) exploit is another one to be solved.

seeing darwin's theory of evolution (a biological/philosophic achievement) burned for an economical (corporation) or industrial (replacable parts) tech, is just as wierd as for atomic theory and electronics.

however, i support lockstep's idea!

	07-12-2003 06:34									#10
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After much thought, here's my suggestion:
Hoover Dam requires airport


Without possesion of the upper tech branch to build an airport, you will lose some motivation to get Electronics with the ToE. The expensive techs offer no units or buildings (except hyrdo plans), and lead to a dead end for a while. Also, you have to go for the upper branch if you want to get a small prebuild for Hoover.

The end effect will be that Hoover will built much later, and likely without much of a prebuild. This helps the AI, who doesn't rely on factories (or prebuilds) as much as the human.

So I think it makes sense in terms of game play, just don't ask me to provide justification based on history... Fine, here's my lame attempt: didn't Las Vegas have an airport when the Hoover Dam was built? OK, I give up. Where does it say that the AU mod must make sense in terms of realsim?

	07-12-2003 15:50									#11
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I always research A.T. while building ToE (no prebuild), and get Electronics and Radio for free. While all AI research Nationalism branch and then to Refining. AI research Replacable Parts after that, and I do that before Scientific Method.

So, I think blocking Corporation may be a good idea, but blocking Replacable Parts are not. Without infantries, AI have not much hope against player's attack force, even with modded defense-7 riflemen.

Haven't test, but I image alexman's idea will work good ingame.
However, it doesn't make sense!

	07-12-2003 16:54									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Risa I always research A.T. while building ToE (no prebuild), and get Electronics and Radio for free.

Interesting ... I assumed that it was not possible to research A.T. at its current cost (200) without considerably delaying ToE, and that it would still be hard to do with A.T. costs of 140.

Going for Electronics and Radio (the latter costing 200) means that, under my proposal, there's only a tiny amount of wasted 'free' research. Granted, Radio isn't necessary for the beeline to Motorized Transportation, but it's still a very attractive route. So maybe another tech cost swap is in order: Radio from 200 to 140, Motorized Transportation from 140 to 200.

quote: I think blocking Corporation may be a good idea, but blocking Replacable Parts are not. Without infantries, AI have not much hope against player's attack force, even with modded defense-7 riflemen.

IMO, Replacable Parts would be still attractive enough for the AI to go for it ASAP even at costs of 200. But if playtesting shows that this is not true, an alternative would be to increase its costs only slightly (say, to 160), but also increase the costs of Refining and/or Steel. This would still save my basic idea that going for the A.T./El. 'free tech route' must equal to a lot of wasted 'free' research.

quote: Haven't test, but I image alexman's idea will work good ingame. However, it doesn't make sense!

Alexman's proposal does in fact mean 'Hoover Dam is available with Electronics AND FLIGHT'. To put it another way - don't let yourself fool by the little Hoover Dam icon that your Science Advisor will display at Electronics.

IMO, a more comprehensable way for the idea 'Hoover needs the lower AND upper tech branch' would be to choose Motorized Transportation or Advanced Flight as its prerequisite. And yes, this also doesn't make sense in terms of realism.

	07-12-2003 20:45									#13
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quote: Originally posted by alexman After much thought, here's my suggestion: Hoover Dam requires airport

It would be a good idea for the AI to build it in time for the space race if given an opportunity. The AI normally starts building a wonder straight away but I've seen them without airports well into the modern age. In the last OCC I played, I had an aluminium colony on the largest continent but couldn't build any space parts because the AIs on it didn't have any harbours or airports.

This really helps the human who knows about prebuilding improvements and rushing.

	07-12-2003 22:36									#14
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How about having it require oil? That would probably be a lot less likely to sabotage an AI than requiring a building would. It would also make getting Electronics with ToE and planning a prebuild for when Refining is researched a bit dangerous because there's no guarantee that oil will be available. That would also make the timing a bit more historically appropriate.

Note that for better and for worse, delaying Hoover will seriously undermine the strategy of foregoing coal plants in favor of waiting to get free hydro plants. On the other hand, if we keep the modification of making Longevity available with Sanitation, devaluing Hoover a little will be a good thing.

	07-12-2003 23:06									#15
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay How about having it require oil?

Call me a purist, but I don't like the idea. Until now, when a Great Wonder requires a resource (Statue of Zeus - Ivory, Manhattan Project - Uranium), the resource is either available from the beginning or becomes available with the same tech that enables the wonder. So, if you want Hoover to be available later, change its position in the tech tree.

	08-12-2003 02:05									#16
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The idea behind the oil requirement (or Alexman's airport prerequisite idea) would be to have two separate tech requirements on different branches of the tech tree and, in the process, make it less trivial to set up to get it with ToE. Since that can't be done directly, it has to be done either through a resource prerequisite or through a building prerequisite if that's the route we want to go.

I won't mind of we leave Hoover the way it is, but Alexman's airport idea got me looking for alternatives that wouldn't be quite so extreme. When I looked at what the editor allows, tying it to oil was what I was able to come up with.

	08-12-2003 03:23									#17
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The problem I see with the oil requirement is that you don't have enough incentive to get away from the exepensive Electronics path with the two free techs of the ToE. Oil is found three techs into the upper branch (two if you take lockstep's advice and go for Industialization before the ToE). I would just use that extra time for my Hoover prebuild, but it wouldn't tempt me to choose the upper branch for my free techs.

I guess the real problem we are trying to address here is that the lower branch provides more advantage than the upper branch, no matter what strategy you wish to pursue.

The two previous ages are well designed, IMO, because each has a short branch (Monarchy, M.Tradition) which is useful for warmongering, but the bulk of the era's advantages come in the large 'builder' branch.

The Industrial Age is different because you need both branches to get the era's warmongering tool (Tanks). So even if you are planning a Tank blitz, you don't lose anything by taking the lower 'builder' branch first.

I would really like it if we removed Motorized Transportation's Electronics requirement.

I realize that this will involve confusion because we will need a graphics download to make the tech tree look right, but at least this will not be a mandatory download (as long as you remember to ignore the arrow from Electronics to M.Transportation, you can play a 4000 BC AU mod save without downloading anything).

Too big of a change for this mod? Maybe, but I think it's just what the Industrial Age needs to make it deeper in terms of strategy.

	08-12-2003 06:46									#18
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quote: Originally posted by alexman I would really like it if we removed Motorized Transportation's Electronics requirement.

This is radical. I like it.

	08-12-2003 09:17									#19
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Has the AU ever changed technology prerequisites before or would this be a first time thing? I know that a similar change was presented in the cavalry thread so messing with the prereqs like this could solve a couple of problems if you started doing such things. It would work as a stand-alone save game downloand and be "enhanced" with an additional download if desired.

	08-12-2003 19:39									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe I am already labled a heretic regarding the AU for suggesting radical changes, so it doesn't hurt me one twiddly to do it again: Take out Hoover Dam altogether. The vast majority of the time the player gets it. It only makes the game that much easier.

I'd be more in favor of taking out ToE. Only problem is that removing ToE renders the bottom tech path virtually useless until you reach Electronics (well... you can irrigate tiles next to coast squares with Electricity, but still...).

Solution: Move Longevity to Scientific Method.

Now who's the heretic?

	08-12-2003 20:20									#21
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quote: I would really like it if we removed Motorized Transportation's Electronics requirement

At first read it seems like a radial suggestion, but the more I re-read your arguments, the more I think you've convinced me This is something that will be ultimately determined by play testing, but I think it is worth a shot.

	08-12-2003 20:43									#22
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quote: a) swapping tech costs so that going for Atomic Theory AND Electronics would mean a lot of wasted 'free' research,

As someone that doesn't look that deeply into the numbers, I'd like to say that the research cost means almost nothing to me on the ToE-Hoover Express.

The important thing is the free power plant in _every_ city on the continent - even the hopelessly corrupt ones that would take half an age to build one.

I don't care what it costs me or how many shields I lose on a miscalculated prebuild - I will have Hoover.

Which, IMO, makes Hoover itself overpowered, ToE overpowered, and for a boring player decision(read non-decision) at the beginning of the Industrial.
Nationalism is never researched by me. Ever. The AI will always research it for me, while at the same time giving me time to get a lead on the way to ToE.

If things are going well(Knights and Cavs did their job), I will have a sizeable empire and benefit greatly from Hoover. If things went poorly and I'm still playing catch-up, ToE is indispensable for gaining parity/lead.

The only detour I might take from a ToE beeline would be to get the Universal Suffrage tech so that my (naturally) republic will be able to handle the coming wars without riot.

Uninteresting decision for the player.
Priority-impaired AI.

The "cost" of the techs really doesn't enter into the equation, at least not for me, as a less nuts-and-bolts-analytical type player. I don't know the costs and don't care in this situation. You could decimate the cost to get to Hoover and multiply any other techs by 20 and I'd probably still do the Hoover beeline. It's just that important to me

	09-12-2003 00:08									#23
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does anyone think the AI puts too much stock in nationalism?

	09-12-2003 01:59									#24
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It does seem that way sometimes, but I recall reading a defense of that phenomenon by nbarclay... and having read it I agree with him. The AI typically faces human mass Cavalry attacks, and nationalism provides a major defensive upgrade for them.

-Arrian

	09-12-2003 03:03									#25
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The AI is wise to get rifles asap, unless it is a KAI or have the landmass to itself (probably a KAI then).

They also want those MPP and embargo functions. Not to mention the pathway to Commie/Spy techs.

	09-12-2003 03:43									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 does anyone think the AI puts too much stock in nationalism?

This is slightly off-topic for this thread. I will open a thread about AI research priorities soon.

	09-12-2003 06:35									#27
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Even further OT: If only we considered making Nationalism (and Riflemen) a pre-req for Replaceable Parts (and Infantry)......

I think ducki's point is top-notch. I had no idea AT and Elec were that expensive - I get AT with the ToE because it leads to Electronics, and I get Electronics because it gives me the Hoover Dam.

I think some may be on to something with a slight rearrangement of pre-req tech for Hoover, and this is the way to go (unfortunately the one that requires an additional file!)

	09-12-2003 06:54									#28
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quote: I'd be more in favor of taking out ToE. Only problem is that removing ToE renders the bottom tech path virtually useless until you reach Electronics (well... you can irrigate tiles next to coast squares with Electricity, but still...).

off-topic, but IIRC it allows irrigation in ANY tile (that can be irrigated) regardless of water source

	09-12-2003 19:12									#29
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Electricity, not Electronics, is what grants the ability to irrigate without a lake or river. (Wells with electric pumps, maybe?)

	09-12-2003 19:23									#30
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The problem, as i see it, is not so much that the ai goes first for nationalism, but stops everything to get communism and fascism after. On top of that, electricity and medicine are low priority dampening access to the more valuable techs.

In short, i say try flavours to encourage medicine, electricity, and discourage communism and fascism. Not in such a way as it is a given, but change the percentage chance of researching by say, 50%.