11-03-2004 03:01									#181
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay The problem with making the wonder expire with Computers is that it would give the player with ToE a strong incentive to delay researching Computers because instead of providing a scientific advantage, Computers would provide a scientific disadvantage. I view that as a very bad thing.

As bad as having Education do the same thing to the Great Library?

Would it help if the Wonder expired with any one of two modern age techs? (The improvement expires with Fission, the Wonder with Computers, for example).

	11-03-2004 03:16									#182
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By the way, the removal of Radio in 1.18 doesn't make Advanced Flight required. I guess we could expire the Wonder with Flight and the improvement with Motorized Transportation, and that would pretty much cover the Industrial Age end techs.

	11-03-2004 03:30									#183
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I like the idea of "Obsoleted by Computer", which makes Computer another Education. Should I avoid Computer like hell, or should I beeline to it? That leads to hard and interesting strategical choice.

However, I'm not fond of granting new improvement idea, which seriously devalues Computer. If I've got the third research boosting building, why should I make it disappear and rebuild it manually (ie. research Computer and build research lab)? Sure I would lose mech infantry, but with TOW, it won't be a big problem.

I was about to suggest making the new improvement provide only 25% research boost, then I realized it can't be done in editor. I haven't got other ideas by now.

Other minor issues:
Won't adding new improvements require adding/changing files? Or it may and probably will lead to confusion.

I'm not sure how dummy resources work. Are they resources that will appear on not any terrain type? Thanks for anyone's answering. Though if I were to add unbuildable unit/improvement, I'd assign it to a "none era" tech.


Edit: cross-posts. Obsoleted by last two industrial techs seems acceptable.

	11-03-2004 03:36									#184
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We already have dummy resources in the AU mod to influence AI research. They are strategic resources with appearance ratio of zero.

Can you research a 'no era' technology? I'm not clear on that. I know that in 1.18 Radio is a 'no era' technology that they give to all civs from the start so that nobody researches it.

Adding an improvement doesn't require new files, as long as you use an existing graphic and civilopedia entry. We did this already for Communism (SPHQ) in the PTW version of the mod.

	11-03-2004 03:39									#185
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quote: As bad as having Education do the same thing to the Great Library?

I don't see this as the same thing. The Great Library just links your effective research rate to the AIs as a whole.

The proposed Great Laboratory gives you free buildings as a booster to your own research.

I don't necessarily see Computers as a bad expiration date, I just don't see those as the same. I think a better parallel would be having the Temple of Artemis expire at Monotheism(when Cathedrals become available), but even that isn't the same, as we're creating our own special research lab improvement that isn't required for following improvements.

As I see it, we're trying to jury-rig our own implementation of the SGL's Golden Age of Science. As such, it should be a temporary boost, just like the SGL's GAS or a regular Golden Age. When you come down off that high, you are, in fact, coming down. It shouldn't be a steady upward curve that would be allowed by an expiration after Computers - that would extend the wonder's power too far IMO. Expiring before Computers - or even AT Computers - does not create a scientific disadvantage with Computers. Computers has not changed, it just happens to be the (proposed) trigger that ends your Darwinian Scientific Golden Age.

I see how it might be perceived as a disadvantage, but if the human chooses to forgo computers(and we should make sure that the research bonus for the Great Laboratory/Darwinian Science Age is less than the advantage of building real Research Labs everywhere) then that is his or her option. I'd have to double check, but I think there are some pretty big goodies that come after Computers in the tree and for the human to postpone those may not be as helpful as the Great Laboratory.


I like the name The Great Laborator, but if we have to figure out yet another GL acronym from context I might have to snap my C3 cd in half and nobody wants that. Well, maybe my wife.

Anyway, there should be a sense of "loss" or slowing when this wonder-induced Age of Science ends, just like a normal GA. It should feel temporary and fleeting.

	11-03-2004 04:03									#186
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Goodies in Computer branch are:
SETI, meaningful only in OCC or 5CC;
Mech Infantry, good unit, but TOW Infantry can take up its role to some extent;
Internet, basically the same thing as new ToE;
Offshore Platform, good addition, but far from necessary in most cities.
Cure for Cancer, now this may be the good and irreplacable one, yet still not must-have.

I'n not counting Robotics in. It's too deep in the tree.

	11-03-2004 04:20									#187
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that's right nbarclay, originally ToE gave the cheapest tech. its just somewhat ironic that back then we (well I certainly did) wanted the ToE more powerful, and now today it's the other way around.

as far as getting these free labs obsolete, i find it much different than the temple of artemis, where education is a path you have to take. You can avoid education for only so long. While computers, that can be avoided like the plague, and like its been pointed out TOW infantry make up for the lack of mech infantry. In fact you don't even need computers to win the game.

then having the free labs expire at the end of the industrial age is pretty much defining the research path for players. If my free labs are going to expire at motorized transport, then I'll keep the same research path I always take, sci method to electronics and then head into the upper branch.

I wonder though if the AI is even able to take 'made obsolete by' into consideration. for example, the AI has a tech lead to mass production, and just finishes building ToE, just because the AI likes to build wonders, and then a few turns later it researches the tech that makes the free labs obsolete.

	11-03-2004 04:27									#188
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Yes, AI in stock games likes beelining to Flight.
However, since AI's research preferences are "completely under control" in AU Mod, it shouldn't be a big problem.

Am I right, alexman?

	11-03-2004 04:42									#189
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Yes, Flight is about as valuable to the AI as Mass Production in the AU mod, but still twice as valuable as Motorized Transportation. Still, Flight is much less valuable than in stock, where it was about 14 times more likely to be researched than Mass Production.

What if the ToE becomes obsolete with Computers or Rocketry? That would leave you without Mech. Infantry, TOW Infantry, and Modern Armor (because of the Aluminum), if you try and keep the Wonder active, not to mention all the Spaceship requirements.

	11-03-2004 04:46									#190
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If the idea proves too powerful, it can be toned down by making ToE have the same effect as a SGL by accelerating research for a set number of turns.

	11-03-2004 05:44									#191
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quote: Originally posted by alexman What if the ToE becomes obsolete with Computers or Rocketry? That would leave you without Mech. Infantry, TOW Infantry, and Modern Armor (because of the Aluminum), if you try and keep the Wonder active, not to mention all the Spaceship requirements.

The techs needed for Modern Armor would not be particularly affected because a player could research Ecology and Synthetic Fibers and then go back for Rocketry. The wonder would become obsolete only after the player gets the last of the three techs he needs to build MAs. (Granted, there is a catch to that route: the aluminum situation is revealed later than if Rocketry would be researched first.) Normally, I make Computers my first priority in the modern era because even if I want MAs quickly, I don't want to have to research three extra techs at the slower pre-research-lab pace. But just being slowed down for one tech (Computers itself at a slower pace because ToE became obsolete with Rocketry) would be a lot more acceptable.

From a space race perspective, a path of Fission, Nuclear Power, Recycling, Synthetic Fibers, Computers would have to be tempting, especially for communist civs. Under conventional governments, the cities with the highest raw research output are core cities that can generally build research labs relatively quickly, so the difference in research between operating with ToE and operating with research labs once the main cities finish them would be relatively small. (And a time lag while building labs will exist whether it comes sooner or later.) But communist civs, especially ones that have been expanding fairly aggressivey, are likely to have a larger portion of their research come from cities that can't get research labs up in a timely manner.

Nathan

	11-03-2004 07:36									#192
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay In any case, my impression was that Recycling Centers only reduced pollution that results from production rather than eliminating it, in which case having a non-polluting power plant would still make a difference.

That's incorrect. The Recycling Center works like mass transit - reduces building pollution to 1, regardless of how much pollution is there to begin with. I think the more important point is that pollution of 2 is easily manageable with workers, so again, why bother with anything but coal plants? coal plant-160shields, hydro-240, solar-320! I get the feeling people are very used to getting hoover's...

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay That would certainly go a long way toward undercutting prebuilds, and I also like the idea for other reasons.

The cost of the palace is listed in the editor as '10' which means 100 shields. But apparently that value is dynamic based on empire size. Sorry to stray OT, but these are 2 things that may be worth looking at in another thead.

	11-03-2004 07:43									#193
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If this proposed TOE became obsolete at Computers I would avoid computers as long as possible. Getting computers would be like suddenly scrapping all your free labs and then having to build them all over again to get back to square one. I think motorised transportation would be a better choice.

edit- who knows, maybe someone would actually research advanced flight or amphibious war before getting tanks!

	11-03-2004 08:02									#194
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Advanced Flight requires Motorized Transportation.

Also, to recap the parts of the thread you may have skipped, we are no longer considering making the TOE become obsolete by Computers, but by Rocketry as well. Either that, or by Motorized Transportation and Flight. So far anyway...

	11-03-2004 08:26									#195
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locking the player out of aluminum kind of makes sense, if they want to keep the free labs, its still not much of a detterent imo. I mean, all I have to do is build a few tank armies, and I'd be nearly as good as if i had MAs. computers has already been pointed out to be easily avoided as well, and I bet fission could just as easily be avoidable. as far as ecology is concerned, I don't think that would fit the bill

if I'd want to keep the free labs, then more than likely I'd be going for a domination or conquest victory, each and every game, and just research the modern techs that don't make my stuff obsolete.

too bad there isn't an earlier 'narrow' tech path so to say, to make free labs obsolete, like how education is to the temple of artemis

	11-03-2004 08:38									#196
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quote: If the idea proves too powerful, it can be toned down by making ToE have the same effect as a SGL by accelerating research for a set number of turns.

I looked and looked and couldn't find this effect, which was why I posted all the other ideas for simulating this. Had I been able to find that one, I'd never have suggested the free Unis, the +50% research, the double research or any of that. Plus, we wouldn't have to muck about with expiration, since the SGL effect last, what? 20 turns? 25?

If it's available as a wonder effect, it is, IMO, far preferable to the jury-rigging we're going through to simulate it. I just didn't see it in there.

	11-03-2004 09:16									#197
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As long as obsolescence is tied to a mandatory industrial tech, we would probably do best having only one tech make the wonder obsolete. That would ensure that it has to become obsolete by the time players enter the modern era. That was my original idea: pick one of the terminal mandatory industrial techs, and when the player researches it to leave the era, the wonder becomes obsolete.

	11-03-2004 09:24									#198
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i dont believe its possible to make a wonder obsolete with 2 techs.

same thing with giving a wonder the SGL science bonus, not possible

	11-03-2004 09:37									#199
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quote: Originally posted by smellymummy i dont believe its possible to make a wonder obsolete with 2 techs.

Simple. One tech obsoletes the wonder, the other makes the virtual building outdated.

	11-03-2004 09:42									#200
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There is a narrow path, if we mark Advanced Flight as mandatory.

	11-03-2004 09:47									#201
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Why don't we give a free SGL (or 2) with ToE?

This would be in keeping with the Science flavour of the wonder, and while you don't get the free techs, you have the opportunity of getting a temporary research boost (similar to the temporary Uni's/Labs being discussed above but without the "expires at...." problem). Or you can use it/them for wonder rushing (ie, Hoovers, or SETI/Internet/UN). There's no culture bonanza, so Nathan's war-monger issue goes away. In the unlikely event that the AI gets it, AI SGL's may be a frightening prospect for a human player at that stage of the game, if used properly.

	11-03-2004 09:56									#202
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The problem is, there isn't a seperate SGL unit in editor. The leader unit in it is MGL, IIRC.

	11-03-2004 10:08									#203
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quote: i dont believe its possible to make a wonder obsolete with 2 techs.

The way I read the "2 tech" idea was:
Tech A makes Wonder Effect 1 obsolete.
Tech B makes Building 1 obsolete.

The Wonder grants free Building 1s in every city.
You can kill the end effect either by killing the building it gives or the wonder itself, effectively allowing the wonder to expire at either of 2 techs.

At least, that's how I read it, maybe I misunderstood.

	11-03-2004 11:18									#204
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i understand the 2 tech thing now, I didn't think non-wonders we're affected by this. very cool

	11-03-2004 18:52									#205
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay As long as obsolescence is tied to a mandatory industrial tech, we would probably do best having only one tech make the wonder obsolete.

Why is avoiding one certain industrial age tech better than avoiding a modern age tech? Expire the Wonder with Motorized transportation and the ToE player will always go for Flight before Tanks. Expire it with Flight and he will always go for Tanks before planes. 'Always' is a bad thing for this mod.

By the way, I would prefer to keep Advanced Flight optional, just so you don't have to always research it.

	11-03-2004 21:02									#206
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Always is, indeed, a bad thing.
Like the human always beating the AI to ToE. Heck, the human always trying for ToE. I think we're getting too bogged down in a minor detail of our patchwork Science Age effect.

And I think I have a simple solution.

How many of us "always" build the UN, whether to finish early or to prevent a vote?

Expire the Great Laboratory with whichever tech allows the UN to be built.

Then I think we have an interesting strategic choice.
Keep the research boost and risk an AI Diplo win or prevent the AI diplo win and lose the research boost.

	11-03-2004 21:36									#207
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I think obsoleting the Great Lab with any modern era tech is too late. How many techs do we want the Lab to be worth? Keeping it as two, spread out over the industrial era seems unreasonable.

A civ with no science improvements has a base science output of X. A civ with libraries in every city has 1.5 X, a civ with universities everywhere has 2 X. A civ with the great Lab and unis everywhere has 2.5 X. So worst case scenario: a civ goes from producing say 400 beakers per turn to 500 beakers per turn (with fewer science improvements built, the jump will be bigger). Roughly speaking, that means getting 5 techs in the same time as you would have gotten 4. So if we aim for players getting roughly 10 techs before the Lab goes obsolete, then at the end of that time they are two techs ahead of where they would have been.

Assume that players still beeline for Sci method, and time a prebuild to get the wonder almost immediately. They will have steam power, medicine, electricity and scientific method at that point. The next ten techs can be replaceable parts, one optional tech (sanitation, ironclads, nationalism), atomic theory, electronics, industrialisation, corporation, refining, steel, combustion and mass production. Other optonal techs to be traded for. That currently leaves radio, flight, motorised transport as compulsory techs and advanced flight and amphib. warfare as optionals (subject to changes in the tech tree).

Say we make it obsolete with mass production (or motorised transportation). To get the best use of the wonder, the player has to get flight and radio first, but this delays getting to tanks. So the player can either take a two tech lead, get to tanks and go on the rampage, or get an extra few turns of tech lead from doing the other techs first, but possibly allowing the AI to get to tanks at about the same time as the player.

If we make the wonder obsolete on MT, then the player has the option of keeping the science benefits for a while longer, but having tanks from his last tech in the industrial era (very short window of opportunity there before mech inf come along), or going for tanks but losing the extra science earlier. And whichever path is chosen, the boost is going to be close to two techs (1.5->2.5), depending on how the player plays it.

Thoughts?

	11-03-2004 22:11									#208
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I have one comment: I like your analytical approach, but the wonder has to be helpful to players at economic parity with the AI too, right? You won't discover 10 techs by research unless you're already way ahead of the AI, or if you refuse to trade with them.

Also, it looks like the Radio technology is going to be removed in the next patch, which shortens the age.

	11-03-2004 22:15									#209
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Since we're making our own virtual City Improvement, we could make it equivalent to Libraries instead of Unis or even Labs, depending on where we expire the effect. Libraries "only" give a 50% science increase in their city(after corruption?).

We might even be able to completely customize it somewhere in between, I'm not sure.

My main reason for suggesting using the UN tech for expiration is that would, IMO, provide the most interesting strategic decision for the player - far above whether or not to get tanks(although this one does force a choice between war and building somewhat) and has much more game impact than the Computers option.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the UN tech is Fission. If so, wouldn't avoiding that tech prevent the player from building the Apollo project as well, slowing the spaceship build in addition to risking a diplo loss?

Like I said, correct me if I'm wrong about the tree - I'm not near familiar enough with the modern age - but I think the tech that allows the UN would create a very important, possibly game deciding, strategic decision, especially if there are Modern KAIs that have either good reps or a good chance at the spaceship.

Seriously, though, that was a great comparison and explanation of two free techs up front and effective "free" techs from science boost. Nice job!

	11-03-2004 22:26									#210
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I believe Vulture's analysis is very close to perfect for our purposes. Alexman's comment suggests that the max benefit given Vulture's ending tech argument is the same as ToE now gives, although the "present value" of the benefit is less since you have to wait. I would like to see the benefit reduced a bit, and the possibility of trading does suggest that it would normally be a bit below 2 techs. Moreover, we are also removing electronics from the MT line which further reduces the impact of ToE from what it is now. MT looks like a good end point to me.

(Achieving a substantial, despite being temporary, edge on tech speed, even starting at tech parity, surely is an advantage well worth building a wonder to achieve.)