06-12-2003 18:10									#1
	Activision: How about CTP2 Patch 1.11 & C:CTP source code now? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think it is about time we discuss the possibility of the release of the CTP2 Patch 1.11 and C:CTP source code to the public as well. Before we do that I need to explain why I consider it important and possible.

1) CTP2 Patch 1.11
Unless the source code of this particular patch is gone I can't find a reason why this should not happen. There might be some workarounds to solve the lack of this code but it would certainly make our work much easier with no cost to Activision at all. I mean even with no licence included in the code of the patch it would be impossible to run the game without the rest of the code or the game itself.

2) C:CTP
There is a significant number of people that play C:CTP and never migrated to CTP2. It is known that the first release of the series sold twice as much as the second one. Thus by fixing the bugs and improving several aspects of the game would greatly enhance and improve its value and durability. Also the code would greatly help to fix and improve the popular PBEM feature that is not working properly in CTP2, the space layer or other stuff that are better implemented in C:CTP. It is said that the C:CTP source code has gone forever and part of it survived through the CTP2 source code. The post-production support of the C:CTP lasted for several months with the release of two patches - 1.1 & 1.2 - so I find it difficult to beleive, during these months and having in mind the large budget of the project, that no back up of the source code had been kept. Unless Activision lost or threw the source code in the garbage, which I find it kind unlikely there must be somewhere.

Apart from fulfilling our expectations and personal joy I beleive it could benefit even more Activision's public profile and perhaps increase the sales of both C:CTP and CTP2, two games relatively dead in sales measurements. Who knows, maybe this craze leads someday to a commercial release of a third succession of the CTP series. A game, derived by a very successful one and developed by the funs, open to further improvements to anyone interested would certainly gain the trust of people, with a practically never ending post-production support, and could have all the perspectives to become a commercial hit. And all these with no to minimum effort and resources on Activision's part. Sounds like a tempting one to me.

What do you think?

	06-12-2003 18:35									#2
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As for the CtP2 1.11, Activision even mentioned that the source they're sending by is supposed to include the patch code. There must have been some sort of a misake.

As for CtP1 code, it has been mentioned numerous times that such code does not exist. The programmers simply took the CtP code and started adding stuff to it, thus making CtP2. The codebase is the same, and indeed, we have found referrences to stuff from CtP1 in CtP2 code. I think one of Activision programmers said that they never intended to remove any CtP1 code.

	06-12-2003 18:58									#3
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Actually Mr Ogre mentioned that if I remember correctly, but several programmers that are currently working on the code confirmed that the patch is not included. Unless it is that well hidden somewhere within the code that people can't find it I consider it absent.

I'm pretty sure that I've read about the lack of C:CTP source code as many times as you have The difference is that you're convinced and I'm not Well if the entire source code of C:CTP is actually unchanged and retrievable within the CTP2 then that would be great Can someone direct me on where to find it though or confirm your statement?

	06-12-2003 20:18									#4
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The most unequivocal statement was from st_swithin:

quote: No-one kept the code branch of just C:CTP. It got assimilated into the CTP2 codebase, so IT'S ALL THE SAME THING, FOLKS. C:CTP DOES NOT EXIST AS A SEPARATE ENTITY. Unless maybe Mark Lamia has a record of it, but I don't think anyone on the team actually bothered burning a copy of the C:CTP codebase branch before we started modifying it for CTP2. Unfortunately, we also killed all the fuzzy logic AI as well, so I don't think there's any of that left. Too bad - if someone could have found a way to defuzzify it, it would have been the best AI ever written.

The only thing that may be recoverable from CTP1 is robotcom.dll. This is where it's AI lives (including probably the fuzzy logic; it's certainly got some fuzzy logic files in there, but I don't know whether it's the whole system). IIRC, the original intent (c98 or 99) was to release the API for this so that, to paraphrase an unnamed programmer, "people could stop *****ing about the AI in the forums and write their own version". I don't have CTP1 anymore, but if somebody who has got it wants to, they could build robotcom.dll and stick it in the appropriate CTP1 folder to see if the version we have is the original working one. If so, then that means that anyone who wants to could rewrite CTP1's AI.

BTW, this does not mean that you can use this stuff for CTP2. But, IMO, we're better off without it. It might have seemed like a good idea at the time, but CTP2's AI is much cleaner and more easily moddable:

quote: st swithin And the AI is totally tweakable via text files. I know this because I am doing it now. And I should also mention that the AI text files are about 10 orders of magnitude easier to use than in CTP1. ... oh yeah, one more thing: FLI rules are gone. No more scary, ambiguous, non-debuggable text files. ... VERY user-friendly text files, outlining the order of items AI cities build, types of units, and strategies. It's all un-fuzzy (i.e. Boolean) now, which makes it much easier to see what's going on. However, don't mistake "easier" for "less complex" - the number of rules doesn't determine the complexity, it's how they interact.

	10-12-2003 09:00									#5
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Regarding the CTP1 code then I can only say that i have seen lots of code in there that is permanently commented out and i guess thats where CTP1 is now. There is a known fork of the CTP1 code though as it was ported to Linux and ill bet my best sitting chair that that code is still out there somewhere.

About the patch: I dont think we can demand more work from Mr Ogre and the folks at Activision on this. We will get there soon enough by our selves

	10-12-2003 13:54									#6
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what about permission to allow apolyton users accesses to beta material some one around apolyton must have been a beta tester for both ctp and ctp2 with it still hanging around

	10-12-2003 13:58									#7
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No, we don't have your War Walker either

	10-12-2003 15:37									#8
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somebody has to and don’t forget we probably have the code now because of my fondness to that walker

	10-12-2003 18:00									#9
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quote: Originally posted by The Big Mc somebody has to

What makes you think that? Multiple people (including Activisioners) have told you that beta art wasn't saved.

Think of it this way: when you write a paper (for school or work or whatever), how often do you keep backups of intermediary versions of that paper? Usually one only keeps a copy of the latest version, overwriting earlier versions of the file whenever you save it. It works the same way with designing PC games...

	11-12-2003 08:29									#10
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Big Mc, why don't you test your Paint shop skills and finish it yourself

	11-12-2003 15:03									#11
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I tried I am missing two shots of the thing or i could

	11-12-2003 17:40									#12
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The Big Mc, the game called "Massive Assault" should give you a good starting point if you are looking for a war walker in the Battletech genre.

You should also have a look at "Titans of Steel"...

	11-12-2003 18:14									#13
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I did do some concept art for more war walker but it is hard to try and keep them in the same ctp style

	11-12-2003 20:10									#15
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quote: Originally posted by The Big Mc I did do some concept art for more war walker but it is hard to try and keep them in the same ctp style

Hey they're looking good though

	11-12-2003 22:31									#16
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yes when I find some time I can actually start to make some. The problem with martins sprit edit which has stop me has been resolved

	15-12-2003 05:03									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Peter Triggs The most unequivocal statement was from st_swithin: quote: C:CTP DOES NOT EXIST AS A SEPARATE ENTITY. Unless maybe Mark Lamia has a record of it, but I don't think anyone on the team actually bothered burning a copy of the C:CTP codebase branch before we started modifying it for CTP2.

Unless... maybe... I don't think...

Those words do not state certainty for sure. They hide some sort of uncertainty.

Besides the most likely would be that either the lead programmer or the producer would keep a back up copy of the source code and not a simple designer/programmer (though you never know), and as property of Activision it would remain with it and not with the producer or anyone from the team, at list legally.

quote: Unfortunately, we also killed all the fuzzy logic AI as well, so I don't think there's any of that left.

Again uncertainty in her words...

quote: Originally posted by Peter Triggs I don't have CTP1 anymore, but if somebody who has got it wants to, they could build robotcom.dll and stick it in the appropriate CTP1 folder to see if the version we have is the original working one. If so, then that means that anyone who wants to could rewrite CTP1's AI.

Any suggestion on how to build robotcom.dll?

	15-12-2003 05:13									#18
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quote: Originally posted by kaan Regarding the CTP1 code then I can only say that i have seen lots of code in there that is permanently commented out and i guess thats where CTP1 is now. There is a known fork of the CTP1 code though as it was ported to Linux and ill bet my best sitting chair that that code is still out there somewhere.

There will be some C:CTP source code lurking there for sure but how could that help to fix bugs for C:CTP and generate a patch for it? There are lot of bugs there and CTP2 source code could help fix just a few of them though it would be hell to apply them in a patch for CTP1 and would probably require reverse engineering.

	15-12-2003 05:14									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus No, we don't have your War Walker either

Give the man his toy!

	15-12-2003 14:30									#20
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thanks kaygen i am looking for what i have nick named the "rosette stone" a early ctp screen shot which sows the war walker moving north as well as south

	15-12-2003 16:19									#21
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The robotcom.dsp file is in ...\Activision\CTP2\ctp2_code\robotcom and I just tried to build it: 238 error(s), 6 warnings. Some of the errors were because they redefined some of the terrain types between CTP1 and CTP2, but I don't think that this would really be a problem. What probably is an insurmountable problem is that there's lots of 'z' : is not a member of 'MapPointData' errors. This is because they removed the space layer and I don't know what would be involved in trying to put it back in.

	17-12-2003 05:14									#22
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quote: Originally posted by The Big Mc thanks kaygen i am looking for what i have nick named the "rosette stone" a early ctp screen shot which sows the war walker moving north as well as south

Have you searched any game site apart from Apolyton or Google for it?

	17-12-2003 05:25									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Peter Triggs The robotcom.dsp file is in ...\Activision\CTP2\ctp2_code\robotcom and I just tried to build it: 238 error(s), 6 warnings. Some of the errors were because they redefined some of the terrain types between CTP1 and CTP2, but I don't think that this would really be a problem. What probably is an insurmountable problem is that there's lots of 'z' : is not a member of 'MapPointData' errors. This is because they removed the space layer and I don't know what would be involved in trying to put it back in.

Thanks Peter, I'll have a look at it.

	17-12-2003 14:01									#24
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Keygen

yes but any suggestions will help

ALSO

if I remember right there was a conversion to linux by a company called loci or so my search for the rosette stone indicates maybe they have the code

	17-12-2003 15:10									#25
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Loki died a long time ago As did all other companies who made ports of CtP, with the possible exception of the company that made the Mac-port (MacSoft?).

	17-12-2003 15:33									#26
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what about now

	17-12-2003 15:37									#27
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Loki
MacSoft

	17-12-2003 16:19									#28
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no pics on both and Macsoft can't find there civ.ctp page

	17-12-2003 17:46									#29
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I didn't posted the links so you can find the pics there, I would find it pretty strange if they where there , but to find any links or contact information to ask them about the beta pics. In Loki, there is a newsgroup where you could possibly ask too but I doubt you will get an answer as the last entry was 6 months ago...

	17-12-2003 18:28									#30
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Like I said, Loki no longer exists, I seriously doubt you can get anything out of a company that went bankrupt 2 years ago.

MacSoft might be worth a shot, but 1) I very much doubt they'd have beta images, as they only started to port the game after the PC version was released and 2) I doubt they own the rights to any graphics materials they may have.