06-12-2003 23:33									#1
	Christopher Lee totally cut from Return of the King? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ok, source is the NY Post, so I'm not convinced it's true yet, but still...

http://www.nypost.com/gossip/pagesix.htm

quote: December 6, 2003 -- CHRISTOPHER Lee and millions of "Lord of the Rings" fans were shocked to hear that all of the legendary actor's scenes in the third installment of the fantasy trilogy were left on the cutting room floor.

How can this be? How can you cut Saruman from Return of the King?

quote: For his part, Lee is planning to boycott all premieres of "The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King." "What's the point of going?" he told a reporter. "None at all."

Seriously. What a way to treat a legend.

	06-12-2003 23:34									#2
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I'm not surprised. Jackson shows little hesitance in cutting out important scenes and characters, in addition to changing the personalities and actions of those he leaves in.

No one treats the man with the golden gun like this! He'll be back!

	06-12-2003 23:38									#3
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It was on the bbc news site a while ago too, so I´m afraid it is true

	06-12-2003 23:38									#4
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This can't be true. Surely Jackson has more sense than that.

	06-12-2003 23:39									#5
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Playing Devil's Advocate here, Boris...

but really, after the Ents leveled Isengard at the end of TTT, exactly what bearing does Saruman have on the course of events? Especially since we already know that they aren't doing the "Scouring of the Shire," thank heavens.

His story arc is essentially over. He was only going to be in the opening few minutes of ROTK at most; I'm sure it'll be restored in the DVD.


Honestly, no big loss.

	06-12-2003 23:39									#6
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morons...

	06-12-2003 23:39									#7
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Yup, he's gone. Jackson cut the final confrontation between Saruman and Gandalf from Two Towers because it was getting too long. But then when he stuck it at the beginning of ROTK it didn't work. So now it's been banished to the DVD. I know the Palantir is in the movie but I have no idea how they get it out of Isengard.

He really should have just left it in The Two Towers. Seven minutes is nothing in a 3 hour movie.

	06-12-2003 23:40									#8
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider This can't be true. Surely Jackson has more sense than that.

Yeah, but the prob may be that there´s simply too much stuff so he had to leave something out

	06-12-2003 23:42									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Playing Devil's Advocate here, Boris... but really, after the Ents leveled Isengard at the end of TTT, exactly what bearing does Saruman have on the course of events? Especially since we already know that they aren't doing the "Scouring of the Shire," thank heavens. His story arc is essentially over. He was only going to be in the opening few minutes of ROTK at most; I'm sure it'll be restored in the DVD. Honestly, no big loss.

I hadn't realized the Scouring of the Shire had been taken out; this is all worse than I imagined!

What an absolute waste; this was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to make the Lord of the Rings into a good film, and Jackson has to screw it up.

	06-12-2003 23:43									#10
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As someone who has never read the books, i was really looking forward to finding out what happened to Saruman. Surely Jackson could have spared a few minutes for such a major character and great actor?

	06-12-2003 23:49									#11
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider As someone who has never read the books, i was really looking forward to finding out what happened to Saruman. Surely Jackson could have spared a few minutes for such a major character and great actor?

Maybe he is just cutting scenes out for his precious extended versions. Paying 40 bucks to get scenes that should be in there already.

	06-12-2003 23:49									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Playing Devil's Advocate here, Boris... but really, after the Ents leveled Isengard at the end of TTT, exactly what bearing does Saruman have on the course of events? Especially since we already know that they aren't doing the "Scouring of the Shire," thank heavens. His story arc is essentially over. He was only going to be in the opening few minutes of ROTK at most; I'm sure it'll be restored in the DVD. Honestly, no big loss.

Saruman is a key figure, so just having him "vanish" from the story is absurd...like he'd just give up after the Ents hit Isengard? Plus you have the unresolved Gandalf/Saruman conflict. It's a loose plot thread just left hanging.

	06-12-2003 23:58									#13
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I have no problem with it... (and it will probably end up on the extended DVD in the future anyway)

Anybody with half a brain knows that you couldn't do the books exactly as written... that there are time constraints... and all the characters couldn't be included... and that some stuff would be modified.

Jackson has done an excellent job so far... the movies have been great. Are the exactly like the books... no, but who cares. This is the best we are going to get... and far more than I could ever have hoped for. If you are so thrilled with the books... go read them again and enjoy them over and over again. There was no way a movie was going to be an exact replication... Everybody can come up with their own little... they left this out or changed this... you can't please everybody.

So I go to the movies expecting to see a movie... not an exact duplication of the book... since it really wasn't possible to do so in the first place. As it is, so far, it is far better than expected, and when you add up all the hours for the extended versions... far longer than I could have originally hoped for.

Just think, some hack could have done 3 - two hours movies, and left even more out.

Keep up the good work, and I can't wait to see the movie, and then buy the extended version later to add to the other two that I already own.

	07-12-2003 00:05									#14
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I have no problem with them not being precisely faithful to the book. The problem is that Jackson has created his own plot hole. He played up Saruman in the first two films as a major force, so his failure to resolve that hurts the film, IMO.

It's also a shame of a way to finish the trilogy with regards to Lee, who is one of film's most revered icons. How could 7 minutes to resolve his character and at least put him in the film have hurt? I think it's a terrible move. The bad PR alone isn't worth the 7 minutes.

"Being on the DVD" is a poor consolation prize, because it's the theatrical release that is certainly the most anticipated and watched.

	07-12-2003 00:09									#15
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Amen, Rah.

I honestly like the movies more than the books.

Ideally, yes, Saruman would be in ROTK; and there would be no need for "Extended Edition" DVDs. However, there is no way on god's green earth that New Line is going to allow a nearly four hour movie to be released in theaters. It is simply a business reality that some scenes that Jackson would like to keep in the theatrical release will have to be cut for reasons of length.

And Saruman, who really has had very little screentime over the first two films, AND who has almost no bearing on the story whatsoever at this point, is a prime target to get cut.


EDIT: In regard to your point Boris about Saruman being a major force, it seems to me that his being a major force is based mostly on his army and foundry, both of which have been utterly wiped out. It is obvious at the end of TTT that he is no longer a major force at all. It'd be nice if his 7 minutes were in ROTK, but in reality, those 7 minutes would have very little effect on the rest of the film, or on the trilogy as a whole.

	07-12-2003 00:11									#16
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What boris said.

	07-12-2003 00:14									#17
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This is why I thought TTT sucked ass . It ended way too early in the story, because it spent all of its time focusing on the battles. Those battles could have been substantially shortened and they could have added the demise of Saruman, and maybe even put in the 'spider scene' .

Imagine THAT cliffhanger for people who hadn't read the books.

	07-12-2003 00:18									#18
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I like the fact that neither movie has ended with a cliffhanger. It would feel entirely too... Hollywood if they did. As it is, while you can't forget that each is simply a part of the whole, the films feel like that can stand on their own separately.

	07-12-2003 00:30									#19
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It's too bad they didn't do the Scouring of the Shire. After all, isn't it the Hobbit homeland one of the major things driving the Hobbit characters on their quest — to preserve what they love, thus undertaking the incredible risk posed by returning the ring to the volcano, where it was first forged?

It'd be a significant blow to my morale if I were on some mission to save humanity, and received word mid-way through that, hey, the United States got the snot nuked out of it.

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	07-12-2003 00:34									#20
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I personally like the fact they cut that out. I hated it in the books... When I watch the fellowship, I skip to when they leave town and start watching it from there

To each their own...

	07-12-2003 00:45									#21
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Yeah. I like fairytale endings. I fully expect one with RotK.

	07-12-2003 01:01									#22
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I don't have a problem either with not having the "scouring of the Shire" in the movie. Even in the books it felt more like an epilogue than part of the main story.
But they should leave in the confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman- at least to explain how they get the palantir.

	07-12-2003 01:02									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Just think, some hack could have done 3 - two hours movies, and left even more out.

amen, sir... amen.

	07-12-2003 01:30									#24
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Even with cutting out Saruman from film 3, the running time is something like 3 hours, 20 minutes. Some of you who think he should have been left in must have iron asses and gallon-sized bladders.

	07-12-2003 01:35									#25
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How about a nice intermission?

	07-12-2003 01:39									#26
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When was the last movie released nationwide that had an intermission? The 60s?

	07-12-2003 01:43									#27
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quote: Originally posted by DanS When was the last movie released nationwide that had an intermission? The 60s?

Gettysburg, I believe.

	07-12-2003 01:47									#28
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Yeah, they could include it and DanS, ming and co. can go to the bathroom during those 7 minutes- everyone's happy!

The way the second film ended, with no cliffhanger, and barely a hint of danger to the heroes, it looks likely that the good guy are going to win, no problems. And if Mordor really is still such a huge threat then Saruman and his army end up feeling entirely extraneous

	07-12-2003 01:48									#29
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Apologies, the run time in the theater is 3.5 hours (210 minutes), not 3 hours 20 minutes.

Damn. We would need two intermissions!

	07-12-2003 01:54									#30
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quote: Originally posted by DanS When was the last movie released nationwide that had an intermission? The 60s?

Kenneth Branaugh's Hamlet had one; of course, at 4 hours 6 minutes, it bloody well ought to.