07-12-2003 03:49									#1
	The List's organization Remove this text

This thread is about logistic pertaining to the Civ IV List.

1-
Hey, we'll need to organize this thread about the Civ IV wishlist so that that it doesn't become a big mess. First, is someone making a compilation so that it is all put in its place? Second, should we make a few threads, each one discussing a different aspect (economy, troops...)?

How SHOULD it be organized to be optimal?

2-
The List done with Civ III had, I think, one weakness: how could the developers know what players gave more importance to? Perhaps some way of puting some hierarchy into the ideas could be helpful. Some of these things are easy to implement AND crucial while some others are more complicated and accessory.


PS: I also agree with Jon Miller on page 2 of the wishlist and mostly disagree with the ideas he quoted :P

Last edited by Trifna on 07-12-2003 at 03:56

	07-12-2003 03:50									#2
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Just get Yin back from wherever he is and to work on this!

	07-12-2003 04:00									#3
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I agree with Solver.
But as for the organization, the way you proposed Trifna, with several threads, is how it should be done IMHO. IT has been done like that for all the mods made for Paradox games, and as I've understood it, that has worked perfectly good.

It could be an idea to let one person have the responsibility for each section when it comes to the compilation of the list, and then have a person over everyone that has responsibility for organizing the different parts into a good product and acting as a boss for getting the project going forward.

	07-12-2003 07:17									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Just get Yin back from wherever he is and to work on this!

Wasn't that one of the reasons most things in the list were ignored?

	07-12-2003 20:39									#5
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Nikolai: Ok, well for my several threads, I lurned that it seems that I'm the only one willing to put some time on something still not announced :P

Thanks for saying me how it works optimally, and here's one thing I believe could be better:
Let's simply put some priorities. Perhaps a five stars system or something...

Last edited by Trifna on 07-12-2003 at 23:06

	08-12-2003 01:17									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

My idea was for several threads from the start, but I didn't want to clog up the entire forum with threads for this, untill I knew that people want to do this.

And I guess a PM to Mark is in order, before we do that

Asmodean

	08-12-2003 04:09									#7
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Nice
Then let the thinking begin! :P

Do you have any way to show what is seen as priorities and what is considered less important?

	08-12-2003 04:24									#8
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Well, I was thinking that since this is going to be a monumental task, we'd have category managers for each category. The manager is responsible for his/her own thread - i.e. collecting ideas, and presenting them in a comprehensive format.

I have gotten the go ahead from MarkG to make threads for every category, but before we do that, I think we should have a sign-up thread, where would-be managers can express their interest in different categories. The category managers can then make their own threads for ideas.

Tomorrow I will take all ideas from the ideas thread, and make word documents for each category, so that each category manager wont have to comb through the same thread. Seems kinda redundant to me

I also expect to make the sign-up thread tomorrow, so that we can get this show on the road

Asmodean

	08-12-2003 04:29									#9
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After, perhaps we should make a bunch of polls to know how is quoted each idea. One (or many) poll for economics, for diplomacy, etc.

I think that it could be very very useful for Firaxis people, no?

	08-12-2003 04:40									#10
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Problem is that it would be incredibly time consuming to do a poll for every item in the list. Not to mention the fact that it would clog up the forum with tons of polls.

But I agree with you that some sort of polling would be nice to have.

Let me think on a way to do this, OK

Asmodean

	08-12-2003 05:08									#11
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we should do it as the civ3 list

as a list of ideas

not as some sort of design doc for a game

they are the ones designing the game, we are just throwing ideas there way (because sometimes we might think of something they haven't)

as far as volunteering goes, I am against it

I think we should just ahve threads that Firaxis, if they choose, can read and see what different people here think

JOn Miller

	08-12-2003 05:57									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Jon, I think that Firaxis will like ALOT more soemthing that is organized as much as possible instead of doing the compilation themselves (which they wont: time is $$ for Firaxis too).

The more we can do for them, the more they'll be able to go ahead.

	08-12-2003 06:21									#13
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but I still maintain that we are not trying to make a design doc

I am sure that I am not trying to

if someone wants to clean up the suggestions, fine by me

but making a design doc is something totally different than suggesting ideas

it is actually totally different

with one, firaxis gets a bunch of ideas that they can weigh and decide what works best with their vision, with the other there are only a limited number of ideas that are all linked and might not fit at all with firaxis's vision

Jon Miller

	08-12-2003 08:19									#14
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Hmm... organizing the list... did you want something organized like the list on this site:

http://home.att.net/~civgames/ideas.html

We could always build off of this- or of course, we could do it in a completely new way

	08-12-2003 08:19									#15
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One thing I think could be beneficial would be some "must ameliorate" sectors. For example, it could be:
spying
stack units
colonization

	08-12-2003 08:25									#16
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For priorities, I could put different ideas in different colors...

	08-12-2003 08:26									#17
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quote: we should do it as the civ3 list as a list of ideas

hear hear. jon miller- that's the best sort of idea

	08-12-2003 08:30									#18
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quote: Well, I was thinking that since this is going to be a monumental task, we'd have category managers for each category. The manager is responsible for his/her own thread - i.e. collecting ideas, and presenting them in a comprehensive format.

Good idea Asmodean- however, perhaps there should be an overall idea manager who edits all the sections and double-checks everything (so as to lessen the load on thread managers)... sort of an uber-editor... who could also highlight important things.

Example:

Red Text- MUST HAVE, and possible with existing tech.
Blue Text- Good idea, though ambitious
Black Text- It would be nice, but it could be overlooked if you [Firaxis] have to.

	08-12-2003 08:50									#19
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who determines must have and the like?

all that sort of thing is different on a per person base

and remember that we here at apolyton are not length and breadth of the civiverse (so a poll cuoldn't decide things either)

Jon Miller

	08-12-2003 08:56									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

If every site creates their own list then it'll be good enough.

and if not- then they should come to Apolyton and vote, or send thier own emails to firaxis.

as for what to list... if we list everythging and put the 'unlikely' things such as (Full 3D modeling of cities with little people walking around and giving advice during the game about what to do with each city,,, and of course you can walk among the buildings and look up and interact,etc) in gray or some other color denoting their non-necessity, then everyone will be satisfied.

Personally, I would like to omit idiotic ideas as they don't have anything to do with civ. If you give thread editors and the master editor, the threadmaster the power to determine what goes in and what goes out- I think that would work the best.

And if a poster has any problems, then a poll can be done. or he can petition Markos... or the threadmaster and thread managers.

	08-12-2003 09:09									#21
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I still think that everything should be included

no matter how improbable you or anyone else thinks that it is

and remember, not all civers come to civ sites

Jon Miller

	08-12-2003 09:56									#22
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I'm in Jon's boat on this one. We shouldn't have to tell Firaxis what is beyond their capabilities or what a good idea is.

I am all for the list being as organized as possible by catagories, and having polls like the current stacked vs. unit combat, and what have you. But I think that we will naturally rule out the poor ideas through discussion.

If I suggest that the first Civ 4 expansion pack be "Streets of Civlization" and that the player should be able to drive chariots or tanks (depending on tech!) around their empire... well... it doesn't have to be in grey text for Firaxis to know that it isn't what everybody wants.

I would support that a few people become editors of the list, who occasionally start threads with the topical headings (The List: Immigration, vol. 3) that summarize the debates and whatever consensus the previous discussions turn out.

But I don't want us to start excising one idea because it doesn't mesh with another. We should be the "brainstorm."

	08-12-2003 10:58									#23
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We can go further than brainstorm and simply give an idea about how the Apolyton community gives importance to different ideas. Would it take anything out to show Firaxis what is higher on the Apolyton community wish-list? What is considered more/less crucial?

I see only advantages. And I do not personally see any reason to "omit" certain ideas, they'll only be in another color: white

	09-12-2003 08:25									#24
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quote: But I don't want us to start excising one idea because it doesn't mesh with another. We should be the "brainstorm."

As I said before, I don't believe in deleting the ideas, but when something is clearly not part of the civ spirit or is clearly only supproted by a few posters on the site, or is clearly not a really good idea (ex: Letz ha4e @ c0w un1t that anc1ent hunters can hunt and get f00d.) should be indicated in some manner that it is subpar.

however, as far as the summary suggestion, that would probably be best if combined with my suggestion about "ranking ideas"

The list threadmaster will summarize the discussions and the general consensus, then (s)he would list all the other ideas in differing colors under the summary and allow firaxis to make its decisions based upon that information.

	09-12-2003 10:09									#25
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If people want to volunteer to go crazy with color then that's fine, as long as nobody expects average Joe List Poster to start ranking his ideas and coding them appropriatly. That sort of thing would simply discourage many posts who don't want to do it "incorrectly."

Personally, I think that simply having the different discussions in the different topics, with a volunteer providing semi-regular summaries of what the discussions have been, will be more than enough. I'm assuming, of course, that the volunteers would be balanced and include all important discussion points.

	09-12-2003 22:37									#26
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Well, of course, I understand that Fosse... It's the threadmaster's job to sift through the ideas and signify ones at different levels... people can petition the threadmaster if htey have problems.

Indeed, I also agree that summaries should be included but IN ADDITION to the summaries, I still think that the colors are necessary so that all the ideas are mentioned and avaliable for Firaxis to peruse.

	10-12-2003 03:58									#27
	Remove this text

I am extremely against color coding ideas

I don't think that we are representative of the average Civ player

I don't think that we know what is capable or what is neccesary

those are all things that Firaxis should handle

and are not our place

Jon Miller

	10-12-2003 06:55									#28
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But we can make things easier for them by telling them what THIS community considers importatn... it's pretty obvious that we're one of the core groups of civ-players since we spend all our days talking about civ

we may not be the mass, market, however, I will acknowledge that- but that's marketing's problem... civ is seen as a wargame because it is a wargame/strategy game... it can never be mass-market in the way that an action game is unless word of mouth from the hardcore audience states that this is an "EASY TO USE, HARD TO MASTER, AND FUN GAME!" like the civ II phenomenon!

	10-12-2003 07:00									#29
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I know a lot of mass market people who played and enjoyed Civ3

I knew even more who enjoyed Civ2

Civ is a massmarket phenomenum

and Firaxis must make something that they will want to play

MOO3s downfall was trying to follow the wishes of the people in their forums

I don't want Civ4 to follow it

Jon Miller

	10-12-2003 08:03									#30
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Given the opinion of the people on the forums, I'd think that you'd be hard pressed to prove that Firaxis did what they wanted, but that's beside the point.

Having a managed list is fine, and if people want to label those ideas that are most appealing to the most people with color, fine. Just don't expect the average poster to have to compy. If thread editors are willing and able to objectivly organize such things then more power to them. Those of us who see no need for such things can simply continue to contribute as we have been since we found out about Civ 4's green light.