Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > Gotta Love That 9th Circuit!
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread    < Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 07-12-2003 13:00 Visit Ramo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
Gotta Love That 9th Circuit! Full PM-box? Change here!

They basically gutted the 1996 Anti-terrorism Act. Woohoo!

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...s-supreme_court

quote:
The Bush administration's interpretation of sections of the 1996 federal anti-terrorism law violates the Constitution, the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled Wednesday.

The 2-1 decision affects portions of the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 that have been a major tool in the efforts by U.S. Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft to combat terrorism. The Justice Department had no comment on the ruling but is expected to appeal.

The central problem, appeals court judges Harry Pregerson and Sidney Thomas wrote, is that federal prosecutors have interpreted the law to allow a person to be charged with giving aid to a terrorist group even if there is no evidence that the defendant knew about the group's actions or even that the government had labeled it a terrorist organization.

In addition, the judges said, the provisions of the law barring "material support" to terrorist organizations are too vague and risk imposing liability on "moral innocents."

To convict a defendant, "the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused knew that the organization was designated as a foreign terrorist organization or that the accused knew of the organization's unlawful activities," Pregerson wrote.

The case involved individuals and groups who supported two organizations that the U.S. government considers terrorist — the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), which opposes the Turkish government, and the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), which opposes the Sri Lankan government.

Both organizations were designated as terrorist groups by Secretary of State Madeleine Albright in 1997. However, both groups also engage in other advocacy work on behalf of ethnic Kurds and Tamils. The U.S. supporters of the two groups who challenged the law argued that the assistance they provided was for humanitarian purposes.

The 1996 law states that people may be prosecuted if they "knowingly" provide material support to a terrorist group. When the law was being considered in the Senate, Pregerson noted, Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, emphasized that "intent requirement."

"I am convinced that we have crafted a narrow but effective designation provision … while safeguarding the freedom to associate, which none of us would willingly give up," Hatch said.

The Justice Department, however, has interpreted the "knowingly" language in the law to mean a person can be prosecuted so long as he knows the identity of the group to which he has given money. The person need not know about the group's designation as terrorist or about its violent activities, the government says.

Under that interpretation, Pregerson said, "a person who simply sends a check to a school or orphanage" run by the Tamil Tigers could be convicted "even if that individual is not aware of … any unlawful activities" by the group.

"Or, according to the government's interpretation" of the statute, Pregerson said, "a woman who buys cookies from a bake sale outside of her grocery store to support displaced Kurdish refugees to find new homes could be held liable so long as the bake sale had a sign that the sale was sponsored by the PKK."

The dissenting member of the appeals court panel, Judge Johnnie B. Rawlinson, said that the ruling would allow U.S. supporters of groups designated as terrorist to escape prosecution by pleading ignorance.

"No one disputes that the PKK and the LTTE are terrorist organizations," Rawlinson wrote. "The record in this case reflects that the PKK's terrorist activities have resulted in the death of over 22,000 individuals, primarily bombings," she said, adding that the Tamil Tigers have "a similar history, engaging in bombings, gun battles, assassinations and machete attacks, causing widespread death and destruction."

"Simply stated," Rawlinson concluded, "the plaintiffs sought and secured a ruling that so long as they profess an intent to further only the legitimate goals of the terrorist organizations, their material support of these organizations should escape scrutiny or consequence."

The court majority also said the law's prohibition against providing "personnel" or "training" to a terrorist group is unconstitutionally vague. Pregerson emphasized that those terms could include constitutionally protected 1st Amendment activity, such as training someone to petition the United Nations or writing literature on the grievances of the Tamils in Sri Lanka.

Wednesday's decision means that the law "cast an unconstitutionally broad net over innocent persons," said Washington attorney David Cole of the Center for Constitutional Rights.

"This decision will mitigate the substantial chilling effect that this statute has cast over those who seek to provide humanitarian aid to conflict-ridden areas," said Cole, a constitutional law professor at Georgetown Law School. The plaintiffs said that they had ceased providing aid to the PKK or the LTTE because they feared prosecution under the law.

The ruling upheld a decision made two years ago by U.S. District Judge Audrey Collins in Los Angeles. The appeals court ruling immediately affects cases in California and eight other Western states. But if it stands it could affect a number of other cases. The law was used, for example, to prosecute Mukhtar al-Bakri, a Yemeni American man who was sentenced to 10 years in prison by a federal judge in Buffalo, N.Y., on Wednesday for providing "material support" to Al Qaeda by providing "personnel."

Had the court's ruling been in effect in New York, it probably would have prevented that prosecution, Cole said.

Cole has filed a related case, now pending before a federal trial judge in Los Angeles, challenging similar provisions in the USA Patriot Act. That case is scheduled to be heard later this month.

Berzerker is offline Berzerker
Emperor
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 07-12-2003 14:11
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Bill O'Reilly should have a hissy fit over this, he's constantly lambasting the 9th circuit.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:32
  Old Post 07-12-2003 18:21
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

This will probably be overturned, like most of the loony 9th Circuit's decisions. Woohoo!

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
King
TN
Jul 2000
time: 05:32
  Old Post 07-12-2003 21:03 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton

The 9th Circus Court is often overturned by the Supreme Circus so I would wait a while before you all start the party.

Anyway, after the next major terrorist attack in this country we will be under level "red" so we can kiss whatever is left of our civil rights away regardless.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 07-12-2003 23:18
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Wierd decision given the facts of the case. Under thier ruling, the people involved would have been convicted anyway.

Edit: Can someone explain this quote: "This decision will mitigate the substantial chilling effect that this statute has cast over those who seek to provide humanitarian aid to conflict-ridden areas,"? Are terrorist groups the only ones providing humanitarian aid to conflict ridden areas?

Last edited by DinoDoc on 07-12-2003 at 23:28

The Templar is offline The Templar
Prince
People's Republic of the East Village
Oct 2001
time: 00:32
  Old Post 07-12-2003 23:56
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
To convict a defendant, "the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused knew that the organization was designated as a foreign terrorist organization or that the accused knew of the organization's unlawful activities," Pregerson wrote.


Sounds like a standard mens rea requirement - you have to know that the organization is involved in terrorism in order for the government to make the inference that you are rendering material support. Nothing new here.

quote:
To convict a defendant, "the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused knew that the organization was designated as a foreign terrorist organization or that the accused knew of the organization's unlawful activities," Pregerson wrote.


Again, the court is reading the (constructive) knowledge standard for mens rea into a vital element of the crime - that the organiztion is in fact terrorist.

Sorry guys, but only the lunatic 4th Circuit (the one that a year or two ago struck down miranda only to be reversed by the supreme court ) could disagree with this interpretation of the statute.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 08-12-2003 00:04
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

quote:
Originally posted by The Templar
Sounds like a standard mens rea requirement - you have to know that the organization is involved in terrorism in order for the government to make the inference that you are rendering material support
Exactly. That's why the decision was wierd given the facts of the case. Anyone interested enough in the plight of the Kurds or the Tamils would know the nature of the PKK and the LTTE unless they were supremely stupid or willfuly ignorant.

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 09-12-2003 03:43 Visit Ramo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

You really think everyone who donates to what they consider humanitarian charities know everything about the groups they donate to?

Japher is offline Japher
Prince
Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:32
  Old Post 09-12-2003 03:44
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

yaaaaaaaay, our stupid judges did it again, all 3 of 'em. You'd think it would take more than 3 idiots to decalre something like that.

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 09-12-2003 03:45 Visit Ramo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote:
This will probably be overturned, like most of the loony 9th Circuit's decisions. Woohoo!


Yeah, how dare they oppose the decline of the US into a police state.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 09-12-2003 03:52
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
You really think everyone who donates to what they consider humanitarian charities know everything about the groups they donate to?
Do you think anyone that works with a group often enough to get the attention of the government doesn't know the nature of the group they are working with?

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 09-12-2003 03:56 Visit Ramo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Who are you referring to?

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:32
  Old Post 09-12-2003 03:58
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I would support a change in the law to allow strict liability with a smaller penalty for contributing to or supporting a terrorist organization and a larger penalty if the government proves knowledge of the terror activities.

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 09-12-2003 04:01 Visit Ramo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Why should there be any liability without knowledge of what the groups are doing?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 09-12-2003 04:02
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
Who are you referring to?
Now you are just being facetious. I'm refering to the same people you were in the post I quoted of yours.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:32
  Old Post 09-12-2003 04:04
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

this should get the repuke's panties in a bunch... go 9th Court the only court that seems to give a sh1t about America and what a free society should be

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 09-12-2003 04:06 Visit Ramo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

There was no proof the individuals prosecuted by Lord Protector Ashcroft had extensive knowledge of the actions of the relevant groups, hence the decision. Whether the advocacy groups that championed these individuals did or did not is another story entirely.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 09-12-2003 04:13
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
There was no proof the individuals prosecuted by [hyperbole removed] Ashcroft had extensive knowledge of the actions of the relevant groups, hence the decision.
Let's try this one more time.

Do you think it is possible for a person informed enough to give a damn about the Kurds for example and further informed to know that the PKK is an organization that works on thier behalf to not know about thier nature?

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 09-12-2003 04:15 Visit Ramo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#19 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

Sure, we can do this one more time:

"You really think everyone who donates to what they consider humanitarian charities know everything about the groups they donate to?"

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:32
  Old Post 09-12-2003 04:16
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#20 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

What I find funny is how the Chicago Tribune reported about Ashcroft order the detention and eventual deportation of over 83,000 muslims... but yet... not one was charged with any crime. And only 11 had alleged connections to possible Al Qaeda sources. I guess their only crime was being Muslim in Bush's America.

Good for the 9th Court. I guess it's up to them to protect our civil liberties since the Supreme Court is bought and paid for.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 09-12-2003 04:23
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#21 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ramo if you refuse to give a straight answer just say so. This is getting to the point where it is like talking to a brick wall.

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 09-12-2003 04:24 Visit Ramo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#22 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I've given money to charities that I knew very little about. I'm willing to bet a large portion of this country has as well.

  < Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:32.
Apolyton Time is 00:32.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0630 seconds (91.60% PHP - 8.40% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net