07-12-2003 13:46									#1
	On this day 62 years ago... Got spare money?

Well we all know what happened.

I just want to post some random thoughts. I won't make a silly poll this time around about the attack being justified or not. It really doesn't matter, it's all history anyways. Obviously they felt it was justified at the time.

I want to use this thread to honour all of those involved- on both sides. The japanese were called cowardly for their surprise attack. But I feel otherwise. It was a legitimate military target, it's not like they were targeting unarmed civilians. The U.S. probably should have been more prepared. There was a world war going on, and they did recently put an embargo on Japan I believe. It was a fantastic attack.

A few months ago I read some shipboard logs of the account. Truelly fascinating- esp. for someone who has served in the navy and knows about logs. I would like to find some more logs and accounts of the attack. It has always fascinated me. I sometimes wondered what would happen if my ship was attacked while I was on watch. Well it wouldn't be pretty. The U.S. navy is very unprepared for such an attack. Basically ships in port are sitting ducks. Even moreso today. Many people live off the ship- myself included much of the time I was stationed onboard. Back in 1941 most sailors lived on board the ship and were able to man the guns and get the steam plants up and get some ships underway!. I'm most interested in steam plant operation as that was my job. And I was always amazed at the ships that got underway. Because I knew on my ship our engineering duty section consistied of maybe one or two fireroom and one or two steam room personnel at most. I can't imagine the CIC (command information center) would have a well stocked duty section. The CIC, I believe, is where all the guns are controlled. They may be able to get the guns active without someone actually at the station. And don't get me started on nuclear powered ships. Sure in an emergency you can exceed heat-up rates on a nuclear reactor. But it is still going to take some time to get those plants up- depending on how they are layed up. If the plants are in hot standby, then you can get one plant up fairly fast.

As long as I'm alive, this anniversery will never go forgotten.

just some of those involved

http://my.execpc.com/~dschaaf/arizdead.html

Last edited by Dis on 07-12-2003 at 13:54

	07-12-2003 13:54									#2
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yes, it is a shame that so many had to be lost on all sides, military and civilian, in that war. The attack was fantastic, and a brilliant maneuever, but they didn't finish the job.

	07-12-2003 13:57									#3
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no they didn't- good for us on the american side

	07-12-2003 23:59									#4
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Amazing lack of interest.

	08-12-2003 00:01									#5
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Sixty-two years is two generations ago. Why do you expect more people to care? Does anyone give a **** today about the WWI?

	08-12-2003 00:05									#6
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Sixty-two years is two generations ago. Why do you expect more people to care? Does anyone give a **** today about the WWI?

Well I do. I wouldn't have been born, if it weren't for WW1. My reat grandfather met my greatgrandmother because of that war. So don't you diss my war, OK

Asmodean

	08-12-2003 00:22									#7
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Sixty-two years is two generations ago. Why do you expect more people to care? Does anyone give a **** today about the WWI?

I do. The literature makes up 40% of my english A-level

	08-12-2003 00:24									#8
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Sixty-two years is two generations ago. Why do you expect more people to care? Does anyone give a **** today about the WWI?

I expect you, and other intelligent people to care.

Especially given the paralellels people do go into between Pearl Harbor and 9-11.

	08-12-2003 00:27									#9
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There aren't very many. Pearl Harbor was intended to cripple the American navy so that the Japanese would have time to take over the southwest Pacific and sue for peace. 9-11 was intended to instill fear.

	08-12-2003 00:27									#10
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What's the parallel? Civilians != battleships.

	08-12-2003 00:46									#11
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Both were sneak attacks that led America into war.
Both were used by the administrations of the time to create a favorable view of foreign military engagements in the American people.
The presidents of the time have both been accused of having prior knowledge of the attacks, and allowing them to happen.
Foreknowedge or not, both presidents used the events to take actions and push through policies that never could have passed otherwise, justified or not.

	08-12-2003 00:47									#12
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That's just off the top of my head.

	08-12-2003 00:49									#13
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I expect you, and other intelligent people to care.

Sixty-two years is a long, long time. In sixty-two years, I won't be all that upset if my grand children don't care so much. Hopefully the War on Terrorism will be over by then.

	08-12-2003 00:50									#14
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quote: Both were sneak attacks that led America into war. Both were used by the administrations of the time to create a favorable view of foreign military engagements in the American people. The presidents of the time have both been accused of having prior knowledge of the attacks, and allowing them to happen. Foreknowedge or not, both presidents used the events to take actions and push through policies that never could have passed otherwise, justified or not.

America's response was somewhat similar, yes. However, the response was also very different, and the actions of the OTHER SIDE are COMPLETELY different. In 1941, we had to rebuild our navy and prepare for a conventional war. After 9-11, we didn't have to rebuild our military at all, and we almost immediately engaged in what was largely not a conventional war.

	08-12-2003 00:53									#15
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In WWII, Republicans could attack the President without being called traitors. Today, Democrats who attack the President are called traitors or worse.

	08-12-2003 00:58									#16
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chegitz - a) I doubt that's true and b) they're only called traitors by extremist morons. Unless you somehow think that Ned is a representative of all the other conservatives in America.

	08-12-2003 00:58									#17
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WWII, at the time, was not conventional by any means. Armor, submarines and airpower came into their own and utterly changed the face of combat. The interiors of otherwise well-defended nations became suseptible to attack by bombers, rockets, and very heavy artillary. Total war, with everyone a legitimate target, became reality.

Of course, that's not the half of it.

	08-12-2003 01:11									#18
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Perhaps, Che, but I would be a tad more concerned about the president who set up The Office of Censorship.

	08-12-2003 02:19									#19
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che, is it possible to keep a thread about pearl harbor from becoming your rant about the republican party. please.

One thing that is relevent is that the park service is having to deal with a possible threat to the enviroment that the Arizona poses. They have to struggle with the symbolic nature of the Arizona and it's possible threat to the enviroment to Pearl Harbor.

	08-12-2003 03:04									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel What's the parallel? Civilians != battleships.

If that were true we'd send a couple of holiday tour buses filled with battleships over there and level their habitations to dust.

	08-12-2003 04:40									#21
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Yes they are sending more diving teams inside the Arizona to determine how the ship is holding up etc.

I have more interest in this I suppose because of my time in the navy. Imagine trying to get a ship underway while under attack.

And I would like to look for more shipboard logs.

62 years is a long time. Yet the technology of the U.S. navy hasn't changed that much. Serious. Sure the weapons technology has evolved leaps and bounds. And things like Gas turbine ships do allow them to get underway faster, but a majority of the ships have similar propulsion to what they had 62 years ago. I find it very easily to relate to the ships back then. And the USS Cole did show how vulnerable navy ships are. On the USS Enterprise I often felt untouchable. I still feel that ship is very untouchable by terrorists. Of course it's easy to say this beause my berthing space wasn't on the edge of the ship like the USS Cole. I believe many of those killed were inside the berthing compartment at the time.

There are of coures parallels to 9/11. Most are a stretch though. The main thing is they both attacked us when we felt secure and untouchable. And I don't think any republicans dared say a word towards the administration of Roosevelt in WW2. Things like that were not done in those days.

	08-12-2003 05:36									#22
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quote: 62 years is a long time. Yet the technology of the U.S. navy hasn't changed that much. Serious. Sure the weapons technology has evolved leaps and bounds. And things like Gas turbine ships do allow them to get underway faster, but a majority of the ships have similar propulsion to what they had 62 years ago. I find it very easily to relate to the ships back then. And the USS Cole did show how vulnerable navy ships are. On the USS Enterprise I often felt untouchable. I still feel that ship is very untouchable by terrorists. Of course it's easy to say this beause my berthing space wasn't on the edge of the ship like the USS Cole. I believe many of those killed were inside the berthing compartment at the time.

I don't know about propulsion (though we DID develop nuclear engines), but I know that virtually everything else has improved, so the statement "the technology of the US navy hasn't changed much" is patently false.

	08-12-2003 05:41									#23
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even with a nuclear reactor. The steam engine is essentually the same. Yes I looked at manuals that had specific mention of older ships.

	08-12-2003 05:42									#24
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quote: I want to use this thread to honour all of those involved- on both sides. The japanese were called cowardly for their surprise attack. But I feel otherwise. It was a legitimate military target, it's not like they were targeting unarmed civilians. The U.S. probably should have been more prepared. There was a world war going on, and they did recently put an embargo on Japan I believe. It was a fantastic attack.

I agree.

BTW, some people do care about this, but were asleep when it was posted. They did manage to post on December 8th, though.

	08-12-2003 05:44									#25
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they live in some screwed up country then

I think all time should be U.S. time. Kind of like greenich mean time, but we would call it New York mean time.

	08-12-2003 05:46									#26
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quote: even with a nuclear reactor. The steam engine is essentually the same. Yes I looked at manuals that had specific mention of older ships.

The steam turbine is essentially the ONLY system for that that has EVER existed (other than electric motors), and it's pretty likely going to stay that way for a VERY long time, simply because it works. However, all other naval technology has improved by leaps and bounds.

	08-12-2003 05:48									#27
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ahh but really old ships used diesal engines, and even some small newer ships use diesal engines. And there is a little thing called gas turbines used in new cruisers and fast frigate. Great technology. Of course that can't be used for really large ships (although eventually they may manufacture a gas turbine large enough to power them). But the only really large ships we use are carriers and the marine carriers (LHA's, LHD's)

	08-12-2003 05:52									#28
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And I still disagree about all other naval technology. The only technology that has increased relates directly to weapons and/or navigational systems.

Basic **** like hot water heaters is essentually the same as the 40's. Low pressure steam heats the hot water. And often doesn't work worth a crap resulting in not enough hot water if you take a shower when a watch section gets off .

	08-12-2003 05:53									#29
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Both were sneak attacks that led America into war. Both were used by the administrations of the time to create a favorable view of foreign military engagements in the American people. The presidents of the time have both been accused of having prior knowledge of the attacks, and allowing them to happen. Foreknowedge or not, both presidents used the events to take actions and push through policies that never could have passed otherwise, justified or not.

	08-12-2003 06:08									#30
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While I don't want to totally discount your opinion skywalker, the fact that dissent actually served aboard a naval vessel might incline me to trust his observations more. Unless of course you have served aboard a naval vessel yourself.