26-04-2001 03:05									#1
	MIlitary hardware of the mid-70`s... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I need some help regarding NATO and Soviet military hardware from the period 1975-80 for a scenario I`m working on. Basically, I need some clues as to what types of tanks and planes I should feature in it. So far, I have:

NATO:

Tanks:
M48 Patton
M60 Patton
Leopard
Chieftain
AMX-30

Aircraft:
F-4 Phantom
Jaguar
Harrier
Mirage III
F-14 Tomcat
F-15 Eagle
B-52 Stratofortress

Soviet:

Tanks:
T-62
T-64
T-72

Aircraft:
Mig-21bis
Mig-23 Flogger

As you can probably tell, I`m mainly having trouble with Soviet units. Can anyone suggest any tanks, artillery or aircraft I should include? Any on the list that shouldn`t really be there? (I want aircraft that were stationed in Europe during this time).

I`m off to bed now, but when I check this thread at college tommorrow, I expect to see lots of useful replies.

	26-04-2001 04:02									#2
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Not completely sure, but I would say for the Soviet Union Mig 25 (heavy/longe range interceptor), MiG 27 (ground attack version of the Mig 23), Su 9 (fighter), Su 15 (interceptor), Tu 22 (bomber), Mi 24 attack helis, as well as Mi 8 transport helis and perhaps Ka 25 navy helis (mainly for anti sub missions).
Artillery: Self propelled 122mm and 152mm (forgot the names ), and a wide range of towed guns. Also rocket launchers (modern Katyusha´s). For the tanks, I think your´s are right.

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	26-04-2001 04:06									#3
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Depending on what you define as the mid 1970s, if you're going to be puritanical you might have difficulty having the F-14 and F-15 straight away. And depending your choice of theatre will also determine whether your US units will be Airforce or Navy. For attack aircraft the USN used the A-6, and the Airforce the F-105. In Europe, the Mirage F-1 formed the backbone of the French Army Airforce, with the Etendard in the attack role. Germany and Italy had tons of F-104 Starfighters as interceptors. In Britain the RAF was using the Lightning as primary air defence (but I don't think they deployed to Germany?) and Jaguars as Strike aircraft. The Royal Navy was using Phantoms and Buccaneers respectively until the Ark Royal was retired during this period, then all the aircraft were transfered.

For the Soviets, you're right that the MiG-21s and MiG-23 formed the bulk of the fighters. They also used MiG-25s. For strike aircraft they had the Su-22 as a fighter bomber, and the Su-24 as a strike aricraft. Plus their strategic aircraft: the Tu-16 and Tu22, but you'd have to check the service dates yourself because I'm not sure off the top of my head. I know the original Tu-22 was redesigned completely and still designated the Tu-22M (I have an icon for that). The MiG-29 and Su-27 were in development at this time and first flew ~1977.

If you want a bit of fantasy, aircraft that never made it, think about the American B-70, the British TSR-1, and the Canadian Arrow.

	26-04-2001 04:12									#4
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IIRC, the MIG-25 Foxbat was the "revolutionary" aircraft of the period for the Soviet bloc, while early versions of the f-14 were the state-of-the-art for NATO. The M-60 was the NATO MBT, but plans were in the works even then for the MBT-70, an early proto-prototype of the Abrams MBT. NATO still utilized the M-113 APC extensively, in many roles. If you like, I can provide you with statistics of the AFVs of the period; armor thickness, main guns, horsepower/weight ratios, speed, range (how-far-can-it-go-on-a-tank-o-gas), along with relevant comparisons of similar WWII vehicles. You would be surprised at how well the panther matches up against state-o-the-art mid-60s and 70s military hardware. The T-62 was the Soviet MBT, but the T-55 & 54 were still in use (as well as the T-10, a modification of the WWII JS-III). The Soviets also had a series of 8-wheel BMP APCs and used a relatively advanced APC code named Sagger, which was capable of lobbing some very effective AT missles. Keep in mind that the numbers ratio of NATO to Soviet bloc tanks was always about 10-1. Right up through the mid-80s, the Warsaw Pact forces in Eastern Europe could, at any time, field roughly 50,000 tanks (source; Encyclopedia Brittancia Book of the Year, vols 1966-1987).

I can tell you quite a bit more. Contact me if you like and I'll be happy to provide you with more info.

Salutations,
Exile

	26-04-2001 05:48									#5
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No...the T-62 was too old...the latest Soviet tanks were the T-64s (T-72s were the export models). There were T-62s, T-54/55s, and even a lot of T-34s in abundance at the time.

US Aircraft (circa 75-80)

A-4 (First Operational Flight 1954)
A-6 (1960)
A-7 (1965)
A-10 (1972)
B-1 (?)
B-52 (?)
F-4 (1958)
F-5 (1972)
F-14 (1970)
F-15 (1972)
F-16 (1976)
F/A-18 (1978)
F-111 (1964)

British Aircraft

Buccaneer (First Operational Flight 1958)
Harrier (1967)
Hawk (1974)
Jaguar (1968)
Lightnening (1964)
Sea Harrier (1978)
F.2 Tornado (1979)
Tornado IDS (1974)

French Aircraft

Alpha Jet ((First Operational Flight 1973 w/ W. Germany)
Mirage III and 5 (1956; 1967)
Mirage IV (?)
Mirage F1 (1968)
Mirage 2000 (1978)
Super Etendard (1974)

Soviet Aircraft

MiG-21 (First Operational Flight 1957)
MiG-23 (~1966)
MiG-25 (~1965/65)
MiG-27 (1970)
MiG-29 (?)
Su-7 (1955)
Su-11 (1961)
Su-15 (1965)
Su-17/22 (1966)
Su-24 (1970)
Su-25 (?)
Su-27 (?)
Tu-16 (?)
Tu-20/95 (?)
Tu-22M (?)
Tu-128 (1958/59)
Yak-28 (?)
Yak-36 (1971)

Other Aircraft:
Israeli Kfir
Chinese Q-5
Japanese F1
Swedish Drakken & Viggen
Various F-104
Italian AM-X

I guess that'll do...

	26-04-2001 06:36									#6
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Hey, good idea for a scenario, hope you can finish it and be happy with the results.

I'm assuming by 1970's you are talking about after the Vietnam War. In that case, one of the most important units to include is the B-52 as it first saw action in Vietnam.

Also, you need to make realistic ICBM's that can travel from America to Russia in one turn, but in order to avoid just an all out nuke war, invoke penalties through the events file if one is used, or possibly if it is built.

I have many other good ideas if you'd like some info, feel free to ask, or e-mail...

pap1723@aol.com

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-William Wallace in Braveheart

	26-04-2001 09:28									#7
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I don't think that there is much that I can add here. Everyone else just about covered everything. The only unit that I could see that was missing was the Soviet Mi-4 Bison.(I have an icon for this if you need one) Also, here are some links that might help you:
http://members.tripod.com/~aliabuaz...itary/main.html
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/5423/
http://www.galope.com/mike/frames.htm

I hate to pirate your thread here. Exile, I think that that armor info could really help me out. Also, Andrew Livings I could use that Tu-22 icon for a scenario that I have planned.
[This message has been edited by Jimmywax (edited April 26, 2001).]

	26-04-2001 23:29									#10
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I have only one thing to say;

DOH!

Exile

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"or a very good liar." --Stefu

	27-04-2001 09:12									#11
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No problem Exile. If you send me that info on armoured vehicles you will be redeemed in my eyes.

	27-04-2001 12:10									#12
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Hey Paul are those units I sent you going to work. Do you need more?

	27-04-2001 17:33									#13
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JW, give me a couple of days to dig up the source. It's currently buried in my closet in a box underneath many other boxes. But I'll get to it shortly.

Salutations,
Exile

	28-04-2001 09:52									#15
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They`re just what I`m looking for. The right style and everything! If you have more (specifically stuff like APCs and Soviet aircraft), then I`d be happy to recieve them!

	28-04-2001 08:38									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

You should make up a wish list and send it to me. For instance do you want the BMP or BTR series of APC. If you send me a list I can work on yours while I work on Orion's units for his scenario. Creating the units is my favorite part of making scenarios so it's no problem at all.

	28-04-2001 13:26									#17
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Well, taken from the list compiled by master on high, I think I`d like:

Mig-23
Mig-25
Mig-27

As for Allied aircraft, do you think you could have a go at:

Super Etendard
Jaguar (My graphic for it at the moment is Andrew Livings Tornado IDS one)

And with regards to the APC`s, just do a basic BMP (I`m not sure which type, as my knowledge of military hardware goes about as far as Steel Panthers III`s weapons encyclopedia )

BTW, don`t feel under any pressure to get them done straight away. I know I demanded a fair few units, but I`m patient and can wait a while.

	28-04-2001 13:34									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

And on a slightly different note: my scenario features only two civs: Soviets and Allies. The Soviets represent all the countries of the USSR and the Eastern Bloc, plus several Middle-Eastern nations. The Allies represent all the nations in NATO, plus some others like Israel and Turkey.

My question is: what side should I place these nations?:
Finland
Egypt
Yugoslavia (as far as I know, it was Communist but not controlled by Russia)
North African countries like Algeria, Morrocco and Libya.

	28-04-2001 17:23									#20
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Imho five civs would be better:
Nato
Soviets
Pro soviet neutrals
Pro NATO neutrals
Neutral Neutrals

	28-04-2001 19:22									#21
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Goingonit, I agree that Egypt was more pro soviet, but I would not include them into the Soviet civs (which represent the eastern block).

Henriks suggestion sounds more realistic to me, e.g. for Egypt (as pro soviet neutral) but also for others...

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	28-04-2001 22:11									#23
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Simply Use Gothmog's CivTweak:
http://users.stargate.net/~harden/civtweak.html

	28-04-2001 22:41									#24
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This scenario map will beonly on Europe right?

	28-04-2001 22:52									#25
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another very advanced fighter plane:

CF-105 Arrow (1957)

check it out at http://www.avroarrow.org/

	28-04-2001 22:54									#26
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The MiG-27 was merely a tweaked MiG-23. Use the MiG-21 instead...it was/is the main aircraft of many WPO Air Forces.

	30-04-2001 09:34									#29
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I also like the suggestion of the 5 civs. Speaking of Neutrality, here's Encarta on the NAM (Non-Aligned Movement)

quote: Nonaligned Movement (NAM), loose association of countries that, during the Cold War, had no formal commitment to either of the two power blocs in the world, which were led by the United States and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR). The group was formed in September 1961 by a conference of 25 heads of state in Belgrade, Yugoslavia (present-day Federal Republic of Yugoslavia). The conference was organized by leaders of countries that had recently freed themselves from foreign domination and rejected renewed ties to any big power. Prominent among these leaders were Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru of India and Presidents Sukarno of Indonesia, Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt, Kwame Nkrumah of Ghana, Sékou Touré of Guinea, and Josip Broz Tito of Yugoslavia. The movement has grown to include more than 110 countries, mostly from Africa, Asia, and Latin America. NAM conferences are held every three years. The group has no formal administrative body; at each NAM conference the office of chairperson rotates to the head of state of the host country. Membership in NAM is distinct from neutrality in that it implies an active participation in international affairs and judgment of issues on their merits rather than from predetermined positions. Thus, a large majority of NAM nations opposed the United States during the Vietnam War (1957-1975) and the USSR after its 1979 invasion of Afghanistan. In practice, however, many NAM nations leaned heavily toward one power bloc or the other.