08-12-2003 04:09									#1
	Game balance? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Does anyone else have a problem playing the humans? Even at the easiest level, by the time I make Contact the alien races generally have far more colonies than I have? I am beginning to suspect the game balance? I may be doing something wrong, of course, but I can never seem to match them planet for planet even while colonising at full pelt? I guess the insectoids etc. would hold all the advantages if they could only have hands as we do?

Live long and prosper.

	08-12-2003 17:42									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Nobody really ever bothered balancing the races, and the humans are widely regarded as one of the weaker (if not the weakest) races.

	13-12-2003 19:59									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Thought I would hear from you, Stormhound. In fact, I was counting on it.

Problem is that I am kinda attached to the human race, being human myself. I would rather like to see a one headed, four limbed, warm-blooded and unscaly race prevail in the Universe along with the handsome features and generous nature I like to think I possess! ;>

Have a great Christmas, Stormhound, and a prosperous New Year!


Christopher C.

	13-12-2003 23:27									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yea, pick evon for the lowest level.

If the Humans got about 100 more free points(free superior diplomacy for 60 points if you lower it to poor,better environment,better reflexes and accuracy,etc) they would be fairly good.

I think, that following the rules for ship construction for regular manufacturing races, the humans are ok(build 3 ship size classes below your max,etc).

	14-12-2003 13:02									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I liked the challenge of playing the humans as they were. (but yes CC, I've noticed the same thing you have at the top of the thread)

	15-12-2003 02:14									#6
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Thanks for your contributions, gentlemen.

MOO3 is really crying out for a scenario editor. That would help to even out things for we brethren who are either less aggressive (mea culpa!) or just rather fond of the idea of humanity being top dog in a future universe.

Maybe I should wait until GALCIV bring out their promised scenario editor? In terms of concept I prefer MOO3 to GALCIV but I take my metaphorical hat off to Stardock to sticking with the game for a few years with mods and upgrades. More power to them! That is how it should have been with MOO3, helas!

I sure wish I knew something about programming. I am sure a bit of a tweak with the human empire's production capacity would help.

Somethin' else I've noticed. It might have helped that in a big galaxy, which I always go for, the humans had time to expand but nope... about 100 turns in or so you run up against the aliens who have already conquered or colonised a pretty large slice while you are still on you first ten planets!

My ideal scenario would have been to start with a mature empire rubbing up against other mature empires, the Star Trek scenario as I call it. (I always preferred those episodes, particularly in DS9, to some boring one about discovering some quaint new planet.) Something like that was available in both the games 'Star Trek:Birth of the Federation' and will be so hopefully in GALCIV. Heck, for all its deficiencies even 'Reach for the Stars' had a scenario editor!

I am frankly gutted that the game has turned out so unbalanced. With a little perseverance of the Stardock kind, as I say, it could still have been a highly replayable classic. Maybe the Universe is telling me I should switch to 'Civilisation'?

Anyway, thanks again, gentlemen, including Stormhound, for reassuring me I am not the worst of galactic emperors. The program's die are just loaded against me!

Live long and prosper.

	15-12-2003 17:53									#7
	Tired of ads?

If you want mature vs. mature, you could always try doing the autorun to turn X in the setup.

	17-12-2003 01:20									#8
	Got spare money?

Stormhound, always great to hear from you!

But could you please explain what you mean by "doing the autorun to turn X in the setup". I know what you are getting at - having the AI run the game for many turns - but I dont know how one applies it! What are the precise steps?

God bless, take care and have a Happy Christmas and a Prosperous New Year.


Christopher C.

	17-12-2003 05:42									#9
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I believe it's in the galaxy setup screen (it's been a couple of months for me), down toward the bottom right. Put a number in the box, and the game will run until that turn number. Be prepared for it to take a little while if you go into triple digits.

	17-12-2003 10:39									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Tried that. Takes a loooong while if you want to have the map fully developed and there's no telling what you wind up with. Never had the patience to let it run for very long. Whats the longest anyone has tried the autorun?

	18-12-2003 00:26									#11
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I've heard of people trying it for 250-300 turns. Took a loooooooong while.

	18-12-2003 13:30									#12
	Got spare money?

I may try it again if the wife will let me (in other words, it may be a long time from now... ).

	21-12-2003 15:27									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Many thanks, Stormhound. I may try that. How long might it take to get into triple digits? A matter of hours? I dont think it would be worth using it for less than 150 turns. I now have a 2.2 MHZ. (I got it because nothing less than the biggest galactic canvass in a game is good enough for me!)

At the moment in my particular game, I am doing... okay. I will never be Head Honcho in this particular Galaxy but as Vince278 said, it is a challenge playing the humans. In all the space games I have played I have always played humans or humanoid - it seems species treachery to do anything else! Besides, the Universe really would be better off under our relatively benevolent rule! The aliens are so ugly and so treacherous. We Terrans are much better looking and well, at least a little less treacherous!

Happy Holidays, Stormhound, and a prosperous New Year and also to the others of you who have been so helpful to me with your advice.

	22-12-2003 04:06									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

If you're going to run it for 150 turns, then depending upon galaxy size and number of opponents, you might about as well let it run overnight. It probably won't take near that long, but if you're like me you'll keep watching the pot until you're ready to scream.

	27-12-2003 19:12									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Many thanks, as always, for the info, Stormhound.

Happy Holidays!

You know, I have read how some educated prisoners plant for themselves the perfect garden or build the perfect house in their mind while they are imprisoned!
I would program in my imagination the perfect space strategy game! It would start with having a scenario editor!

Live long and prosper.

Christopher.

	09-01-2004 23:54									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Happy New Year, Stormhound, Whoha and all others who have looked at or even replied to my thread!

Whoha, you believed that a few bonus points could even up things for the humans. That got me wonderin'. Is there a simple way to devise a MOD to change the appropriate algorithms, such as to improve the human's spying or productive capacities etc.? (Or for those of any other race, for that matter, which takes one's fancy.) I see no particular MOD to answer my need on the MOO3 Mod site but, you never know, perhaps a MOD-er might see this thread and come up with a simple MOD to that end.

I notice there is this scenario editor for MOO3 on the MOD site but there seems very little advertised information on what it does. I do so wish that the MOO3 team had provided a scenario editor, to change a few race characteristics or start with an extra few planets etc.(says ChristopherC for the trillionth time! ;<).

Live long and prosper.

	10-01-2004 02:29									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The easiest way to do it would be to go into the file (racemodifiers.txt, if memory serves) and change the point costs for humans to beef them up. Same for any other race, to buff (or de-buff) them. Quite easy to do...a little harder to balance.

	10-01-2004 04:58									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Stormhound, always good to hear from you!

Look, I have just submitted a thread asking for recommendations over MODs. I wrote 'Just looked at the MOO3 Guardian MOD site. There is a 'Human Abilities Increase Mod'. Anybody tried that?'.

So, following on from your suggestion, what EXACTLY do I do, Stormhound, say to improve the human race's productivity by 10 or 20 percent? What are the dangers of screwing the program (or even my computer?) using either this MOD at the Guardian website or following your instructions? I may have a look at the file you suggest, at the very least.

The other sixty-four thousand dollar question is whether I can safely amend these stats mid-game?

Your advice would be much appreciated as always.


ChristopherC

	10-01-2004 10:11									#19
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by ChristopherC Look, I have just submitted a thread asking for recommendations over MODs. I wrote 'Just looked at the MOO3 Guardian MOD site. There is a 'Human Abilities Increase Mod'. Anybody tried that?'.

Playing with it now (among other mods...). Gives you 560 extra points to custom design the humans. Basically, you can max everything out.

	10-01-2004 20:00									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Christopher,

First off, have you unzipped the .mob files to separate directories? If so, making MODs is fairly simple, and there's not much danger if you've got any computer competence whatsoever.

Just in case you haven't: unzip the file
C:\Program Files\Infogrames Interactive\Master of Orion 3\GameDataSets\Classic_01\GameData\Common\Spreadsh
eets.mob into a new directory:

C:\Program Files\Infogrames Interactive\Master of Orion 3\GameDataSets\Classic_01\GameData\Common\Spreadsh
eets

This will result in a ton of text files. racemodifiers.txt is the one you want to play with, and I'll have to refresh my memory before giving you specifics, but there are two general ways of approaching the problem.

1) Give humans more points to custom-design. Not 560, but maybe an extra 100.
2) Change specific features of ALL human races. This is a little more involved, but not bad so long as you're careful.

You let me know which way you want to go, and I'll try to help from there. OK?

	11-01-2004 16:59									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Many thanks, once again, for taking the time and trouble to give me this advice, STORMHOUND. But your instructions sound just a tad too complicated for my level of computer competence which while not being exactly nil isnt that sophisticated either.

So, humans will never be top dog in my MOO3 Universe but we are doing alright so long as we keep in with the mighty Iriarqu. (The ignominy of humanity having to play second fiddle to squid-like creatures but then that was briefly our fate in Stephen Baxter's novel 'Vacuum Diagrams'). I am at about game turn 360 and will play this through for a while and then 'Frontier Wars' and 'Haegemonia' beckons (which will doubtless have their own problems!).

Pity about this game MOO3. It had the elements of a damn fine game. It just needed more commitment and work. (And, most definitely, a scenario editor. All strategy games need one of those!) Well, at least I can repose in the knowledge I have put my time in on it. Perhaps more than I should have. But there are other universes out there waiting to be explored and conquered.

They should have kept some one like you on, STORMHOUND, to work things out and invested a little more time and money in it. This is a franchise which with proper planning could have ran and ran, and profitably, too. Helas, I wonder if it is true that the 'suits' are spoiling the genre, as so many complain. But even from the point of view of balance sheets, it seems to me it really doesnt have to be like that.

Live long and prosper.

ChristopherC.

	13-01-2004 04:00									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Christopher,

I'll try and help you out with the spreadsheet thing.

First step: Get WinZip, download off the web. If you already have it, no worries.

Second step: Go to wherever you placed your MOO3 folder and files. You can use 'Find' command and type in MOO3 if you forgot where your MOO3 files are.

Third step: Open GameDataSets then Classic_01 then GameData then Common then you'll see Spreadsheets.mob.

Remember, GameDataSets -> Classic_01 -> GameData -> Common.

Fourth step: right click Spreadsheets.mob then click on the "Open With" in the list that pops up. Select WinZip, then when it prompts you to choose where you want it to unzip to, use the browse button and select the "common" folder in the MOO3 directory as laid out in step #3 above. After that, keep clicking "next" until WinZip unzips the file. Close WinZip.

Step 5: There will be a bunch of notepad files, so put them all into one folder Iyou make one and put it iin the Commons folder) called "Spreadsheets".

Step 6: Go into that folder, and find "Racemodifiers.txt" file. Right click it and select properties from the list. Deselect the "read only" option on the bottom of the mini screen that pops up. Then close the mini screen, and double click on the file itself.

If you have done everything correctly so far, you'll see a text file with names, words, and numbers in it.

Step 7: scroll down a bit until you see stuff like Bioharvest Efficiency, Mining Efficiency, and all the same stuff in the race customization screen in the game itself.

You'll see the race / species names such as Human, Psilon, Sakkra, etc. on the left side of the document / text. You'll see numbers on the center and right side of the document.

The numbers correspond directly with the ones from the race customiziation screen in the game. It's how much points you need to expend to gain the ability, or the amount of points you gain if you set the ability to the weakest level.

Here's an example.

TableStart RaceManufacturing
ColumnHeadingsStart Species Race Superior Good Ave
rage Poor
RowHeadingsStart
kUnicode None None Superior Good Average Poor

kUnicodD None None RMANUFAS RMANUFAG RMANUFAA RMAN
UFAP
Modifiers None None "ManufEff += 8,CraftsMa*=1.2,CemprPop+=2" "ManufEff += 4, CraftsMa*=1.1,CemprPop+=1" "ManufEff += -4, CraftsMa*=.9,CemprPop+=-1"
Custom None None 60 30 0 -30
HUMAN 0 0 R 30 10 -30


Now change the numbers on the same line as the HUMAN... Only change the 4 numbers starting from the right side of the line... In this instance, change the numbers... -30, 10, 30, and R to 0. Then it will cost 0 points to select ANY attribute in the customization screen... superior, good, average or poor options will be free for manufacturing efficency. Repeat the same process for all the fields you want to change.

Then... Save.

Close the file, and then right click on it, then turn the READ ONLY option back on, then close the mini screen.

Then play!

You'll be able to have a superhuman civ if you want.


Hope that helps.

	13-01-2004 10:25									#23
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

If you really want to give the Humans a boost, just edit racemodifiers.txt and give the Humans the race-inherent "R" value in the best column of each of the ability tables. The result will be kinda cluttered on the race pick screen, but the good old Humans will be thoroughly bad and nasty. If you feel guilty about the excess, you can always give the other races a hundred or two extra pick points in the Race Pick Points table above.

	13-01-2004 22:26									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I did that once, Macraig. It was too nutty, so instead of the R's I set the value I want to 0, and all the others to some other number like 10, 20, 30, etc.

Then when I go to the customization screen, the computer has no choice but to select the 0 values, hence, my screen looks professional without 20 R's, yet I have superhumans.

	15-01-2004 01:19									#25
	Remove this text

Many thanks for the advice, Sovereign, but I fancy it is still a bit too complicated for non-progammer such as me to follow.

So I ask, one and all, Is there a MOD already out there to which I could be recommended to upgrade.

Live long and prosper.

	15-01-2004 01:52									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Your welcome, Christopher.

I think there's some MOD's around. I dunno the websites since I always make my own MOD's and as a result, I almost never download MOD's from websites.

But if I remember correctly, there's some MOD's at moo3mods.com or something like that (I forgot exact WWW address). If not there, then you could check the official MOO3 forums and people there can direct you to MOD's.

Again, I hope this helps.

	18-01-2004 02:11									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Once again, Sovereign, many thanks for trying to help a computer illiterate like me but I dont think I could follow your instructions without screwing up. I may say in my defence that I only sat down in front of my first computer screen at the age of 27 when I began a mature University degree! A colleague of mine at work was asked about her four year old son, when she applied for him to enter kindergarten, as to whether he had any prior computer experience! Strewth!

So here is my plan. At the moment, my game of MOO3 is going great guns since I have managed to hold onto the coat tails of the Iriarquee who are doing all the conquering for me! I just colonise all the planets they cant get round to! I just gotta keep them sweet; well, I aint proud!

Next up after that is either 'Galactic Civilisations', 'Frontier Wars' or 'Haegemonia'.

I will say and defend this, however. Conceptually, I still believe that MOO3 is the richest game around. If only Infogrames had had the commitment for modding and tweaking MOO3 for a few years as Stardock has pledged with Galactic Civilisations, I would have paid the premium and I am sure so would many others!

Incidentally, I believe in reincarnation so I look forward to my next lifetime in which, please the Lord, I can give my home computer detailed specs just by voice for a challenging and rich game of galactic strategy which I have a fairly good chance of winning! Ah, what a time in which to be alive! Though if and when computers can do that, will it be 'Matrix' time? :<

Live long and prosper.

	18-01-2004 23:09									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

No worries, Christoper. I like helping people out.

I'm trying to fix all the issues in MOO3. So far I've fixed the tech bug, game balance to some extent, and boosted the human stats a bit. I also found a way to reduce the turn waiting a considerable amount.

The next things to work on is diplomacy and a few minor bugs. Anyone else want to collobrate with me on this?

I think it's best to have us fans make the next patch, not Infogrames, since there won't be any more official patches.

What better sources of patches than the fans? They know and experience play-time in the games far more than developers do. The fans find the bugs and they come up with suggestions to fix the bugs to whatever needs to be fixed.

Anyone follow that?

Anyways, I'd like to try and get together a patch for MOO3, so people will play it again, and not let it collect dust.

	07-02-2004 01:30									#29
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Sovereign and Stormhound,

In case you have wondered where I have been, my excuse, such as it is, is that I have been recovering from a heart attack I had around Christmas! (My own fault, wayward diet and smoking, if a pipe rather than cigarettes! I guess I cant honestly lay this on my frustration with Infogrames!) My recovery hasnt been quite as straightforward as I would have hoped but I am hoping that things will proceed better now.

Sovereign, do please let me know if and when you manage to complete that patch and where I can download it. I await it eagerly. Particularly balancing up the humans to give them a fair chance with the other races. I feel it is just too complicated for me to fiddle around with myself.

I would prefer that I can just patch the game I am playing but if it is a good patch I am prepared to reinstall and start again. Please specify whether I have to reinstall if and when you manage to complete and test the patch.

In the meantime, I have managed to successfully install Haegemonia with my current video card and that is a game to which I am looking forward playing BUT conceptually, in terms of its deeper Sci-fi sociology, I still think that with a few tweaks MOO3 could be the best strategist's space game around and I am still playing it out now I am back home! It is an interesting challenge playing the humans as a weaker race but really the game should be balanced to give the humans a stab at galactic domination, shouldnt it?

Live long and prosper.


"Having a heart attack is nature's way of telling you to get all your computer gaming in while you still have the time!"

	08-02-2004 23:22									#30
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Macraig,


Could you please given me instructions simple enough for a six year old boy to understand to modify the characteristics for humanoids to even up the game - and I will then find a six year old boy to implement them for me!

Thanks,


Christopher.