08-12-2003 11:15									#1
	1776 in 2003? Support Apolyton

my friend brought this up today, and i figured poly would be an excellent place to extend the argument.

ADD Version:
would a 1776-esque revolution be possible today in a modernized nation?

REAL version
lets just say that tomorrow bush does something that REALLY pisses off like 75% of the country enough to warrant revolutionary ideals. could it ever progress to a unified revolt? i'm not talking about political activism changing the society, i'm talking full blown revolution.

the way i see it, they'd be labeled as terrorists by the state, and the FBI/CIA would be all over it, and the revolution would never be organized enough to actually act.

ideas?

	08-12-2003 11:23									#2
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I think in this case, the majority of the population would decide who would be labeled as terrorists...

I think your military is in essential role here: whom do they serve? The government or the people?
They are run by government (I think), but if 75% of the people would want to revolt... let's just say, that the side the most of the military takes would overcome.

The key is military, so bribe them

	08-12-2003 11:23									#3
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How many guns per American again?

	08-12-2003 11:36									#4
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quote: How many guns per American again?

Enough to keep us free.

	08-12-2003 11:45									#5
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It'd wouldn't happen, because of our democratic tradition. If Bush really pissed off 75% of the country, he would be voted out of office.

	08-12-2003 11:48									#6
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo The key is military, so bribe them

You are right, the key is the military.

With 75% of population revolting, the military is not going to get involved I don't think, since they will be killing their own friends and families.

	08-12-2003 11:49									#7
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Well, the South did revolt when Lincoln was elected. They are STILL a bit pissed off.

	08-12-2003 11:51									#8
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And, lest you forget the high feelings surrounding the last election. The Republican were violently angry at Gore's tactics. Had Clinton intervened on behalf of Gore, anything might of happened.

	08-12-2003 11:58									#9
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Damn it Ned, you made me spill my drink...

	08-12-2003 12:14									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: How many guns per American again? Enough to keep us free.

Not by a mile, if the army is on the side of "generic evil government"

	08-12-2003 12:27									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Not by a mile, if the army is on the side of "generic evil government"

Correct. In the modern era, your handguns are no match for even the wimpy machine guns, before we start moving up the ladder.

	08-12-2003 12:29									#12
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What on earth makes you think that 75% of the people would ever notice what Bush (or any president) is doing?

	08-12-2003 12:45									#13
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Handguns? People in America own everything up and beyond assault rifles. Additionally, your off-the-shelf computer can be used to conduct information warfare.

	08-12-2003 13:16									#14
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Weatherby 300 magnum, scoped with a 20x scope. Better yet, wildcat the sucker down to 7mm. I believe that took the 1000 bench rest competition one year, putting a pattern reliably into a target the size of a dinner plate at 1000 yards. The politicians who are staging an authoritarian coup have to live to enjoy it .

	08-12-2003 13:31									#15
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I rest my case.

	08-12-2003 13:34									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Handguns? People in America own everything up and beyond assault rifles.

Like anti-tank missiles and shoulder mount SAM missiles?

	08-12-2003 13:38									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: How many guns per American again? Enough to keep us free.

I dunno about you, but I think a heavily armed and trained Army Ranger will take out a old hillbilly with a shotgun.

	08-12-2003 13:46									#18
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Why does there have to be a revolt if the same result can be accomplished by elections in less than a year?

	08-12-2003 13:47									#19
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quote: I dunno about you, but I think a heavily armed and trained Army Ranger will take out a old hillbilly with a shotgun.

Well, most Army Rangers are the sons of old hillbillies with shotguns, so I doubt we'd ever see them take up arms against each other. Saying they do, however, I'd just advise you to never bet against a hillbilly when it comes to killin'. Their readin', writin' and general hygiene ain't that good, but those folks sure know how to handle their weaponry.

Not to mention that if 75% of the population is in open revolt, there would be dozens of hillbillies for every Ranger.

	08-12-2003 14:28									#20
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If even half of the population was in active uprising, we'd have a major change in goverment.

The biggest problem with using our military to stop such a revolt is that the vast majority of it, isn't here. And even if they were, theyd be facing the exact same kind of resistance as they're facing in Iraq, only from people they might be sympathizing with.

Fortunately, we don't have to worry about this yet. our goverment is structured well enough that it'd take a lot of change for someone to activalely take over.

A shadow government on the other hand. . .

	08-12-2003 14:54									#21
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You wouldn't be talking about Cheney's spokesman, would you?

	08-12-2003 17:05									#22
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It is a bit of a puzzle to understand how Hitler could rise to power in a sophisticated modern state and then persuade an entire nation to help him inflict misery upon themselves and upon lots of others.

And lacking an understanding of that it is not possible to rest easy that it could not happen in your own country.

It seems a reasonable guess that there was a lot of disatisfaction and fear around in Germany before Hitler's rise began. And he plainly managed to provide a focus for that disatisfaction and fear outside themselves and to get a patriotic fervour on his side.

So I guess when he took his first few steps people were willing to put up with some brutality because they wanted to feel more satisfied and less fearful.

And after a while he had got his hands on all the power of the state. So anyone who started not to like the way things were going might have been scared to stand up and be counted about it for fear of the consequencies.

But even so it seems odd that virtually the whole nation were just quiescent while the whole sorry tale played out.

I can't believe that any sort of majority in Germany continued to support what happened which, if true, suggests a revolt based on popular feelings is not very likely.

To set against that the USSR seems to have crumbled pretty well because the whole of the huge population involved just willed it so. One day they got up and went along to the wall and just started taking it down.

And what happened in Georgia recently seemed to be a sort of populist revolt.

Maybe modern means of communication are such that standing up and being counted is easier than it was?

On the other hand the power of the state is certainly not less than in was in Hitler's day. Much stronger I would say.

You pose a good question, I think. I certainly don't know the answer.

It would be comforting to believe that deep disaffection with government could be given effective expression. Because I have immeasurably more faith in the mob than in any politician. But whether that would be false comfort or not I don't know.

My instinct is that a sufficiently vigorous political leader will nearly always manage to prevent the disaffected from apreciating how widespread the disaffection is, and so keep them quiescent. Which would reduce cases of effective popular revolt to cases where political leadership becomes effete or there is a single issue which divides people passionately.

	08-12-2003 17:40									#23
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous I dunno about you, but I think a heavily armed and trained Army Ranger will take out a old hillbilly with a shotgun.

If you had ever been in the hills of East Tennessee then you wouldn't think that. My money goes to the hillbilly on his home turf (of course that hillbilly probably WAS an Army Ranger when he was 18 to begin with).

I find it interesting that the Iraqi's are thought, in these forums, to be such a threat and that people are discounting the damage that an American resistance could cause. The bottom line on the Army is that they are not going to go in shooting up Mom and Dad's place and making bombing runs on their girlfriend's neighborhood. With 75% support, the government caves in almost immediately.

	08-12-2003 17:59									#24
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STUPID

	08-12-2003 18:19									#25
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What are people in the US so unhappy about that they might want to start a revolution. Most of them get more than enough to eat and their material needs sufficiently or amply met. To put it crudely, obese people don't start revolutions, hungry people do.

As in much of europe there doesn't seem to be that much faith that politicians will deliver something better so little incentive to change one set for another in any way more difficult than the ballot box.

Civil liberties won't do it either. Even if it is your neighbour arrested most people will take the easy option of thinking there must have been a good reason. That worked for Hitler in the early days of power.

Whether a revolution is actually possible is really a non question, the issue is whether enough people want one to make it happen. The answer looks like a pretty resounding no.

	08-12-2003 18:26									#26
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Nothing will ever get 75% of Americans to agree. Sorry, Uber.

However, assuming the impossible--pigs fly up from frozen hell--then you've got to consider international support for the rebellion as well. I'm pretty sure a lot of countries would love to **** around with the US in anarchy.

	08-12-2003 18:27									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

First of all -- you're contrasting a colonial revolution with a domestic revolution.


To what extent can you compare these two as being similar??

	08-12-2003 18:41									#28
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quote: STUPID

See, this is definitely an exception situation where mods who would respond with the above and then lock the thread are beneficial to forum integrity. Maybe there's hope in the young UR, yet.

	08-12-2003 19:27									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Why does there have to be a revolt if the same result can be accomplished by elections in less than a year?

I was waiting for a voice of reason....

	08-12-2003 19:31									#30
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Well, if 75% of the general population were revolting, you'd probably have portions of the military that would also support the revolt. So I doubt it would civilians vs. military. It would more likely be some civilians + some miliatry vs. some civilians + some military. So, it would more likely resemble the civil war where you had military vs. military.