09-12-2003 03:57									#31
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our terrorists are the worst in the world. they killed the humangous number of 23 people in only 30 years, establishing a terrorist-heaven in greece (which was almost entered in some "bad countries cia list" for all that). NOW we're safe....

	09-12-2003 04:35									#32
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Funny use of term "terrorist-heaven".

It took 30 years to find these guys, while for example Germans and Italians solved their problems much quicker AFAIK. If what BBC says is true, that most people felt 17N was just 'taking care of the dirty work', than CIA just added two and two. No surprise there. The fact that the average patriotic Greek was pretty safe from 17N the whole time has nothing to do with the fact did government or did it not actively seek out the terrorists.

Frankly I don't care, when I visit at the olympics there will be Israelis and Americans taking care of my safety so I'll feel secure, kind of

	09-12-2003 04:37									#33
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No it will be us. So don't feel so secure

	09-12-2003 04:38									#34
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What, did the medication wear off?

	09-12-2003 04:39									#35
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Ah adding that winking smilie next to the scared after my post I see. Very good.

	09-12-2003 04:47									#36
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17 November never was a real threat to the Greek people.

It was born after the Junta and it's first assasinations were Junta torturers that were left free by Greek "justice" of the time and the CIA stationed Chief. US government supported the Junta. So why would the Greek people (those of democratic believes at least) fear or oppose them?

As for how the US handled things, exactly as 17 November hoped for.

Nevertheless after the first assassinations it quickly lost its "appeal".

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 09-12-2003 at 04:53

	09-12-2003 04:51									#37
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Funilly enough they didn't actually get convicted for killing the CIA chief or the Junta torturers because after 20 years of action those crime were erased.

	09-12-2003 04:53									#38
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quote: 17 November never was a real threat to the Greek people.

I said that

quote: US government supported the Junta. So why would the Greek people fear or oppose them?

Why would you oppose terrorists? Give me a minute with that one.

quote: As for how the US handled things, exactly as 17 November hoped for.

How was that?

quote: Nevertheless after the first assassinations it quickly lost its "appeal".

Not that quickly it would seem.

	09-12-2003 04:55									#39
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Funilly enough they didn't actually get convicted for killing the CIA chief or the Junta torturers because after 20 years of action those crime were erased.

Funny that. Most crimes get obsolete, as far as I know only war crimes don't. Weird how terror acts do.

	09-12-2003 04:56									#40
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Why would you oppose terrorists? Give me a minute with that one.

I already answered that. Go and check it out

quote: How was that?

Turned against the whole country and childlishly overblowing the subject out of proportions. Thinking about conspiracy theories and other paranoia.

quote: Not that quickly it would seem.

Quickly enough I'd say.

	09-12-2003 05:02									#41
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Also, you are underestimating the real impact of not actually targeting everyday people.
It wasn't Al Qaeda, if it was you bet you'd have seen much more than mere indifference.
Also its proclamations were overly populist.

	09-12-2003 05:03									#42
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quote: Turned against the whole country and childlishly overblowing the subject out of proportions.

Overblowing the subject? USA can raise hell if it wants, like when they blew up a civilian pharmaceutical factory in Sudan as a response to terrorist attacks. Greece got nothing even remotely resembling that harsh reaction.

quote: Quickly enough I'd say.

And your idolizing threads just prior (very ironic) to the busting of 17N are a proof of that.

	09-12-2003 05:05									#43
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Overblowing the subject? USA can raise hell if it wants, like when they blewing up a civilian pharmaceutical factory in Sudan as a response to terrorist attacks. Greece got nothing even remotely resembling that harsh reaction.

And for that it harvested fierce antiamericanism. Not exactly a wise way of handling things. But then again... it isn't often very bright.

quote: And your idolizing threads just prior (very ironic) to the busting of 17N are a proof of that.

Point me out one.

	09-12-2003 05:09									#44
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Also, you are underestimating the real impact of not actually targeting everyday people. It wasn't Al Qaeda, if it was you bet you'd have seen much more than mere indifference. Also its proclamations were overly populist.

You should understand that I am not 'attacking' 17N.

But it is really interesting how both you and MarkG feel the need to defend them (ok I understand about you since you used to praise them)

	09-12-2003 05:11									#45
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG establishing a terrorist-heaven in greece

You know when I saw you were trolling I never thought you'd be telling the truth.

	09-12-2003 05:12									#46
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I didn't use to praise them unless you're talking about either trolling or (most propably) your own ineptitude to understand what's being said.


Also you again got it wrong. I'm not defending 17N, I'm explaining the things you say make an "impression" to you.

	09-12-2003 05:13									#47
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You know when I saw you were trolling I never thought you'd be telling the truth.

If 23 people dead in 30 years is a terrorist heaven, I wonder what 2,500 or so dead in a couple of hours is.

	09-12-2003 05:15									#48
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Who said I was talking about 17N?

	09-12-2003 05:16									#49
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Who said you did?

	09-12-2003 05:18									#50
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 point me out one.

Yeah, like I am going to dig through the archives for that.

There are countless people who can confirm you wrote about 17N being special, "not just like any other terrorist group" etc etc.

Anyway, as I said I am not judging. You can support who you want

I live in a country not unlike yours, with high nationalism, sharp left-right divisions going back to second world war and so on.

But one should at least have the courage to face the facts and admit the truth.

Which is what you are not doing, I am not sure you realize but you and MarkG both are acting like propagandists.

Examples? Read this thread.

MarkG says only 23 dead in 30 years, hardly worth mention...

CIA -almost- puts you on a "bad country list" and you say it is "childish overblowing out of proportion"

	09-12-2003 05:20									#51
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Give up the trolling

Yes they had acute difference with most other terrorist groups. Sorry if you can't see it. How's this supporting them?

Also Croatia is leagues away from Greece. I hope sometime you catch on but don't fool yourself thinking we're the same.


Also propagandists? For simply stating the obvious?

	09-12-2003 05:26									#52
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I was talking about.. how should I say.. intellectual integrity? If you have two clear facts, add them up and draw a conclusion. It won't always be pleasant but you owe it to yourself.

And self-delusion, also a crime against reason.

If BBC says 17N used to have silent popular support, and you say it had not, while having written positively about them yourself, who should I trust?

	09-12-2003 05:27									#53
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Examples? Read this thread. MarkG says only 23 dead in 30 years, hardly worth mention...

I think what he said is that this hardly equates a country into being a terrorist heaven. With the same logic US is the world's best terrorist paradise.

So obviously it doesn't really hold water. Get it?

	09-12-2003 05:29									#54
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion I was talking about.. how should I say.. intellectual integrity? If you have two clear facts, add them up and draw a conclusion. It won't always be pleasant you owe it to yourself. And self-delusion, also a crime against reason. If BBC says 17N used to have silent popular support, and you say it had not, while having written positively about them yourself, who should I trust?

Point me out exactly where BBC says that.


Indifference and that up to a certain timeframe would be more like it. And I already explained the reasons. Allow me to know my own country a bit better than you.

	09-12-2003 05:35									#55
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I think what he said is that this hardly equates a country into being a terrorist heaven. With the same logic US is the world's best terrorist paradise.

And I bet CIA were not that mean either. How many secrets in Greece get kept for 30 years? I can see why it seemed to them like serious government tolerance and thus - "terrorist heaven"

Almost

Anyway you have trolled me into a discussion I had no intention of participating in but fine, we exchanged a few good points, made a few things clearer and that's it. I'm leaving this thread to other discussants. Cheers

	09-12-2003 05:37									#56
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion And I bet CIA were not that mean either. How many secrets in Greece get kept for 30 years? I can see why it seemed to them like serious government tolerance and thus - "terrorist heaven"

More conspiracy theories
Perhaps you should see all the relevent legislation to tackle with this problem since 1970's onward. Perhaps the extreme confidentiality of 17N which was unparalleled in any other terrorist organization in Europe coupled with poor policework and youd arrive to conclusions without feeding your paranoia?

As for the US I sincerely hope they've wised up since because they have some real threats to tackle with for a change now.

quote: Anyway you have trolled me into a discussion I had no intention of participating in but fine, we exchanged a few good points, made a few things clearer and that's it. I'm leaving this thread to other discussants. Cheers

Bye I simply wish you had condemned your own fascistoid gov. as well. Like the european press has done.

	09-12-2003 05:45									#57
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quote: Bye

Well, you are known to call the mods when things are not going your way so I am getting out while still in the clear

Btw, for the BBC, I quoted that on the first page but admit it, this is a strawman since you know perfectly well 17N was not really considered a danger in Greece, as you have already said. You are contradicting yourself

	09-12-2003 05:49									#58
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Point me out exactly where BBC says that 17N had the silent support of the Greek people, if you can.

17N wasn't considered a danger, and that explains the things I already mentioned. From this to liked or to silent support there's a great distance, wouldn't you say?

	09-12-2003 05:55									#59
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Ok, I could not resist, but this is my last post, honest.

BBC quote is on the first page of the thread, where they say general opinion was that 17N were taking care of 'bad people'.

But the idea that 17N had government support is advanced by you yourself...

Bolding is mine.

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 quote: quote: Originally posted by VetLegion And I bet CIA were not that mean either. How many secrets in Greece get kept for 30 years? I can see why it seemed to them like serious government tolerance and thus - "terrorist heaven" More conspiracy theories Perhaps you should see all the relevent legislation to tackle with this problem since 1970's onward. Perhaps the extreme confidentiality of 17N which was unparalleled in any other terrorist organization in Europe coupled with poor policework and youd arrive to conclusions without feeding your paranoia?

Paiktis, poor policework for 30 years = government tolerance. I'm sure you are aware of that.

If I were having a case, I would rest it now.

[edited spelling and other stuff]

	09-12-2003 06:02									#60
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Ok, I could not resist, but this is my last post, honest. BBC quote is on the first page of the thread, where they say general oppinion was that 17N were taking care of 'bad people'.

Read more closely. The father of one of the assasinated said that. Not the BBC. And he is free to his opinion and to his grief.

quote: Paiktis, poor policework = government tolerance.

Really? To your mind perhaps.

Then the US gov. was collaborating with Osama for 9/11 I assume. Because someone didn't do his work right there too

Perhaps you should also read the government legislation that was enacted after the 1970's. Police's mistakes and incompetence is just that.