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Mao
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Apolyton
Jun 1999
time: 00:13
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What about Su-27s and MiG-29s?
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Mao
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Apolyton
Jun 1999
time: 00:13
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Su-27 is the Flanker IIRC.
THE COUNCIL flogs master for misspelling the name of THE COUNCIL.
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master on high
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San Francisco
Apr 1999
time: 05:13
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*sigh*
Su-27 Flanker
MiG-29 Fulcrum
Both entered service in the early 80s.
Tu-20 (often refered to as the Tu-95) Bear
Strategic prop driven bomber from the 50s...
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Eternal
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FNORD
May 2000
time: 00:13
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Grothgar, how can you forget to include the Arab states in your list of civilizations? After all the whole war was only to weaken NATO so that USSR could sieze the Gulf's oil fields without NATO interference.
...Also, While I do think France and the Allies can be a seperate country because it was not part of the Integrated Command Structure, West Germany should definitely be with Britain and the US.
There are some units you forgot, such as combat engineers (for urban clearance and river crossing, the Soviets had lots of these), and mountain infantry (for Germany's southern hills). And since you included SAS and SEALS under Allied units, why not include Spetznaz units?
One thing you definitely can't forget for the Soviets, and for the allies I suppose, is artillery. The Soviets had an entire Artillery DIVISION in Poland. I suggest you include and S7 unit.
There is also the subject of naval units. You will need Nimitz class aircraft carriers, French and English aircraft carriers, preferably destroyers for each country, cruisers, and of course attack submarines and transports.
Also, you have to reserve some unit slots for thing you may need in order to have the events work. For example, when I was working on my scenario on the subject, rather than make air units that NATO fighter/bombers that the AI will throw away on suicide missions, I made Air Strike missile units that spawn at high-traffic area, such as the Fulda Gap when it is overrun. Another area I needed them was in the Seas north of Norway, where NATO aircraft will do their best to sink Soviet ships trying to make it to sea to stop American reinforcements. I had to make it so that the Air Strikes would stop spawning when the Soviets worked down the coast, so when they took cities, I had to place a stationary Soviet units in the sea where they were supposed to spawn, so they can't.
With all that work, it's no wonder I never finished the thing, isn't it? 
...
If you need to drop some units, you could limit your soviet tanks, because most of them are hardly different from the other (the T-72 is just a modified version of the T-64), and why need to T-80s? And the various special forces like SAS and SEALs aren't really necessary since although they are valuable, their net benefit would be negligible in the European theater as a whole. Nor do I see a great need for so many aircraft. One for each country perhaps (I also included the Swedish J-37 Viggen and a Yugoslavian fighter), but no more than one jet for one role per allied country. And as for the Soviet and Pact countries, you probably only need two interceptors and two fighter/bombers whose central purpose is ground attack.
Also, even though strategic bombers did have a role in attacking the NATO reinforcement fleet in the book, remember the only two used there were Bear (Tu-20) and (I assume) Backfire B(Tu-26). Unfortunately this was too early for the ultra-cool Blackjack.
I'm sorry, I just really like the idea, and I'd like to see someone be able to complete it. 
[This message has been edited by Eternal (edited May 08, 2001).]
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master on high
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San Francisco
Apr 1999
time: 05:13
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For the Soviets just give em:
Kilos, Akulas, Sovremmnys/Udaloys, Kirovs, and maybe a Kuznetov.
Earlier models used by the Polish, Romanians, and Bulgarians could be relatively generic. Dunno what amphibious models were.
For the Americans give em:
Los Angeles, Ohio, Knox, Kidd/Arleigh Burkes, Nimitz, and maybe a Kennedy. Tarawas for amphibs?
Not so good for the Brits...Sheffields, Boxers, or Invincibles I'd guess.
Type 122s and 123s for the Germans. Agostas and whatever else for the French.
And then there are the carriers in Spain and Italy...ACK! The Italian one is an improved copy of the Spanish one...but I don't remember the Spanish one (The Prince something...the Italian is the Garibaldi).
Can't think of the French carrier either...but the new one is the De Gaulle. 
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Eternal
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FNORD
May 2000
time: 00:13
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quote:
I dont think it would be very accurate to include Finland in the Allies. We were very, very, very careful in maintaining absolute neutrality.
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You didn't have a chance in the manner. You were just scared of the Soviets. They restricted you to have a very small armed forces and you were sensible enough to honor the obligations of the treaty you signed.
Nevertheless, you were have been in the path of Soviet units on their way to Norway. I don't know if they'll bother to occupy Helsiniki, Tampere, and that area, but they would pass through the north, and most likely Finland wouldn't offer resistance... Therefore, Finland is more like a Warsaw Pact country.
Incidentally, Soviet plans also called for a shortcut through northern Sweden. It would have been neat to see how the Swedes responded.
BTW, as I recall Red Storm Rising was published in 1984... That's the same year that the M1A1 was beginning production. I can't recall if Clancy used Abrams in the book or not...
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master on high
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San Francisco
Apr 1999
time: 05:13
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nah. Finland wasn't in Cominform or the WPO so they'd be like Yugoslavia, just a nuetral nation.
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06-05-2001 01:31
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