09-12-2003 06:16									#1
	Hi, I'm new, having trouble >.< Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hello everyone, I just picked up MOO2 again after losing it 3 years ago in the 'junk room'. I'm glad to be back, but I've forgotten everything.

:Madban: YIKES. I always seem to run into problems around spying. I tend to run sub/lith and some other combo, because I like the large pops and the ability to obsess Research/Prod on diff planets or in combo etc.

Every game I play goes great and fast up to about class V shield or terraforming... I dunno turn numbers yet. I start getting robbed out of my mind, everything I try to keep as an advantage (tech wise, my play type) gets stolen away. I don't know how to work this out... any help?

Thanks,
-Phil

	09-12-2003 07:14									#2
	Got spare money?

I like to make spies as soon as I make contact or even before if creative. If creative I have more for them to steal as a non-creative, I can wait longer.

If your have no -spy or traits that hurt spying, you should be ok, if you do not delay on researching Tele Training.
I normally will go to N. scanners quickly and get the tech that boost spies in all cases.

Once I get a planet (other than the primary ship building or researching one) to were all structures are doen, it ill just make spies for a long time. I want 4 spies vey soon and then I want to put some out to steal. If I am creative, I will not bother stealing, if I am a tele, I will put the spies on sabatoge instead of espionage.

Later I often put any planet that just finished it final build to make one spy before going to trade. This keeps spies coming in until I get a ton.

One other thing I may do is to use the Darlok picture to prevent them from being in the game.

	09-12-2003 10:23									#3
	Remove this text

Production

	09-12-2003 14:44									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yikes, I have another problem...

I was reading the backed messages about the start of that democratic game, and I realized I always scoff at my early game tech choices, I usually get colony ships and engines first... That's bad? I had never stopped to think that strengthening my planet is a stronger decision. If anyone could break down the 'jist' (sp?) of it for me I love to read strategy, I just can't find anything anywhere about moo2!

	09-12-2003 15:10									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I tend to shoot for automated factories first, then research labs, in pre-warp.

I know a lot of other people like it the other way around, but this seems to work better for me. I don't even look at ship techs until my home system is fully colonized, with the possible exception of freighters.

If I actually luck out and get four colonizable worlds in my home system, it may be five to six years before I even launch a scout.

	09-12-2003 19:46									#6
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I tried to play from the starting position of our democracy game for a speed kill. By turn 180 there were only two alien systems left, with my ships headed towards them (1 psilon and 1 gnolam). I did not build even a single colony from the starting race - played only with the homeworld until t.110 and then conquered everything within 70 turns ... That's an example for a start position-independent race. If you play correctly, you always win.

	09-12-2003 22:02									#7
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Several players have posted a turn by turn run down of games.
I have a few, bakalov and garth vader and others.

First I may suggest changing the sublith for a UniLith. This will make it easier to handle spies.

	09-12-2003 22:06									#8
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Here is a start path for a UniLith. Understand I am not saying this is the only way to play, but you will win.

Settings: Rep -GC -SD Lith Uni RHW LHW Huge PreWarp Mineral Rich 8 players Impossible Antarans ON Tactic Combat.

Worker dispositions are shown as x/y/z, where:
x= number of workers on food production
y= number of workers on industry
z= number of workers on research

R-abc denotes I started a new research project this turn and abc is the name of it.

AF= automated factory
CB= colony base
HW= homeworld
OP= outpost
PP= Pollution Processor
RL= research labs
SA= Space Academy
SB= star base
srt stands for started


T0 all on ind, srt CB, sold barracks
T6 colonized II , srt CB on HW, Housing on II 0/1/0
T12 colonize I, move 1 from II to HW, 0/1/9 on HW, R-EC, Housing on I, 0/1/0.
srt spy (this is a place holder)
T15 R-freighters
T17 R-std cell, switch HW to freighter
T20 R- CS switch to unarmed scout on HW
T22 srt prebuild
T24 srt second scout, sent scout out, Hire Gizmo
T24 scouts out, R-labs (0 RP),
HW 0/14/0 switch to CS (9 turns) I/II housing 0/1/0
T31 2 more pop moved to HW as they did not increase speed of CS, made them Sci 0/14/0
T35 CS out, srt CS (8 turns) 0/15/1
T38 colonize Naos set to housing, scout can move again
T43 CS out, srt CS on HW
T45 colonize Hali, other scout can move
T50 R- hulls (may consider Bio as HW full), switch to lab on all, buy on all,
but HW as it is 2 turns for CS
T51 Hali 0/1/0 housing (poor Huge), Naos 0/1/1 spy Pre for AF, Nazin I 0/1/2
spy Pre for Bio as Size 4, Nazin II 0/4/0 Lab
T52 HW finished CS, sent it out and do Lab 0/3/13 one turn.
Now follow this tech run, turns are dependant upon the planets you are dealt, but will be close.
Freighters
Std Cells
Colony Ship
Electronic Comp
Research Labs
R Hull
Auto Fact
Bios
Soil
T84 Laser
T93 Super
T95 B Pods
T98 Spaceport
T102 Robos
T103 Space Academy
T106 Duets
T109 Merc
T110 Augie
T116 Irridium
T121 Fusion Rifle
T123 Tach Comm
T132 Zort
T141 Antimatter Drive

	10-12-2003 00:30									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

Interesting, I wouldn't have thought of selling your barracks.

Also, I usually transfer people from the HW to colonies so they will grow faster. Interesting to see that in the other direction.

	10-12-2003 03:16									#10
	Remove this text

If you are a Uni, no need to pay maint on it and that 30 BC can be useful at this stage. Later you can built a barracks in one turn to make transports.
As a UniTol, I often don't put up a barracks for a long time, just dust all the planets and start over. That 1 in 20 for converting pop is dangerous, especially if it is Sakkra.

	10-12-2003 03:20									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

In this race you want to get the HW up to full or nearly full size ASAP. This is where you will be making colony ships and maybe combat ships. You may come up with a better planet later and change to it, but for now.......

This is also true if you have a AHW, pack that puppy quickly. Much later, sending pop out can be done. I normaly do not bother, due to lazyiness. The only time I send pop out to grow other planets is if I am in a scoring run. Then I want to get all planets up quickly.

	10-12-2003 05:27									#12
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Well vmxa1, I kinda did what u said, and I kinda didn't.

I played demo/lith.... I like sci more than production. I was lucky enough to start with a huge ultra-rich and a medium ultra rich in my main, along with an abundant small >.<. This game must have been 200x easier, I don't know what I did differently except my start. Thanks for everyones help! I'm not pro, but I'm having fun

	10-12-2003 18:37									#13
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Interesting challenge for a demo/lith race is to defeat the guardian before turn 100 :P

And Garth, colonies grow faster if they have less pop, not if they have more .... just look at the indicator of the pop growth.

	10-12-2003 19:42									#14
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I always noted that they grew faster with 2 than 1, and faster yet up to around half full. But as they get close to full the growth slows.

I might be confusing this with another game, I'll check... if I remember!

	10-12-2003 21:59									#15
	Support Apolyton

No you are correct. The more you have as industry the more growth you get up to a point. The thing is (to me) that you want to pack the HW, but at some point yoou start to have too many structures that you need on the colonies and have to let it grow.
This tends to occur after the HW hits it normal pop max, before you add terraforming or any other pop boosting tech.

	11-12-2003 00:38									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I can see the point in this instance because you have no cost in moving people from planets in the same system.

I tend to build all buildings first and do housing after so I like to get a second pop and often partially rush the auto factories.

But I often also have problems with food and not enough production on the HW until I get soil enrichment if I do that. But the colonies will be productive fairly quickly.

	11-12-2003 04:00									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes the food issue can be a hassle early in the game unless you are a rock. If you are going to colony blitz and are not creative, you will not have Hydros or Soil, so it is a strain for a longer time. If you have radiated planets, it can be a big problem. You got to have some issue to deal with or it is no fun.
You can trade problems for weakness by taking creative. By weakness I mean you will be less productive for the same period, you would have been struggling with food. So its one thing or another.

	11-12-2003 05:31									#18
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I generally go for Soil enrichment instead of cloning though, is there a benefit to cloning with housing in the game?

	11-12-2003 11:30									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yup, about 90K more.

	11-12-2003 20:35									#20
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I always go hydros and soil. By the time I can use biospheres I can usually get it anyway.

	11-12-2003 22:18									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

If you are sending pop to the HW you will need that Bio very soon. If you are repulsive you have no way to get the missing tech, except steal it and that is very iffy.
Soil vs Cloner is is not always so clear cut, I would almost never take hydro over bio. Of course some races do not get to research hydro anyway and creatives get both.

	12-12-2003 00:30									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I seldom take repulsive, I take lowg instead. The 2 free food I get from all the colonies adds up and really helps.

This is what I like so much about this game. We play quite different styles, research different techs, build different kinds of ships but still manage to be successful on the hardest levels.

	12-12-2003 03:32									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I do not recommend repulsive as a "better" pick, I only use to enforce a no extortion policy. I feel it is too easy to do and I get the bonus of not having the AI contact me all the time for chit chat and trades.

Two extra pop produce how much food on a terran world? Once you get to SubFarms or Weather food is no longer an issue and now you have two more researchers.

	12-12-2003 08:11									#24
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Also, if you're not subterranean or creative, you'll soon be at your colonies max population. Having two more reasearchers on all your early colonies can be easily fed by the two extra farmers on the homeworld. Especially for a unification race.
I may opt for hydroponics if I'm democratic though.
I'm usually either creative and dictatorship or not creative and unification (or aquatic).
So I don't have that much of a food problem early on. Later it is not a problem with pretty much any race.

	12-12-2003 08:37									#25
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Again I came to thinking, and the thought on my mind was this.

Why is lithovore so much better than subterranean? By end game you don't need 1/2 ur population farming, in fact far less, and with 2x the pop you'll easily be able to feed radiated colonies...

But aye, the problem lies in just that - end game. So much of this game is early game... It's yukky.

I didn't realize just how powerful feudalism is if you choose charismatic and telepathic >.< You can just trade for all the tech you need, and then exploit the tech u can't trade for LOL. That's only 9 points, and improved feudalism reduces ship costs to 1/3! That's far superior to unification (in terms of ship production) numerically about 1/6th better, and there is a 10point spread between them, (namely lithovore :P)

Yikes. I just don't understand this game like I'm supposed to, do I? The problem with the cha/tele is the reliance on running into friends, and being powerful enough for them not to destroy you instantly. The easiest way I've found to buy favor is to offer useless tech to non-creative races, if you are creative, like fusion beam or rifle, depending on their choice.

Does anyone else have an effective feudal build? If anyone wouldn't mind chatting, I think my msn/icq are in my profile, I'd love it if someone wanted to teach me something .

	12-12-2003 10:00									#26
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Because the best late game boost is an early game boost. It takes a long time to get to late game.

Confed also has morale on top of its ship building bonus, but again, late game vs early game.

Feudal/lith/creative
feudal/lith/tol
are two really good feudal races races i've found, well really they are two really good lithovore races :P

	12-12-2003 10:51									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Yep I'm beginning to look at Tol, it's beautiful. I am considering a sub/tol race, but again, it's powerful LATE game, I need to either have incredible skill to get there, or luck with my early planet choice.

	12-12-2003 12:09									#28
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I've come to a new conclusion, it is quite amazing.

The only thing you need to win a fight is weaponry. If you are feudal, as I was, ship creation is a very unimportant, and fast ontaking. I am currently trying to figure out a balance by which I can produce easily, and also tech aswell... I'll keep everyone posted if I find an uberpowerful option ^_^

	12-12-2003 13:00									#29
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The only feudal race I would play is a tele blitz. Feudal mean no research and research is punished at impossible level as it is.

DemoLith LHW RHW is a very strong race. Played on a huge map with mineral rich makes it a real brute (prewarp or avg tech).

The lith vs sub is really all about food. Liths don't need any and can get working on ind or sci.

	12-12-2003 14:34									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

would you be able to define tele blitz? I know that tele is telepathic... so It could have to do with mind controlling lots of colonies fast, right? What is the other part of it?