17-01-2005 01:13									#61
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After they give out the free tech they only have one major use and that is the vote.

If they can join us and be trusted, great if not, then ....... I would see it that way if I was GoW, so they may want to see them gone as well.

That puts it GS + RP and GoW + ND for the UN, hopefully not for war.

	17-01-2005 05:20									#62
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I think Vox is important to have as a friend and ally if we are going to win. I wouldn't underestimate the effect they can have on the game still. Economically they could fund another team enough so that 100% research was possible without losing money. Militarily they wouldn't be too hard to take out, but would definitely tip the balance in any 1v1 scenario.

	17-01-2005 09:00									#63
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Yes that is true, IF we know we can count on them. Otherwise they could cost us our chance. So if they are putting things in on our side, then we can count on them.

If we cannot strike up some sort of compact, then they are dangerous to us.

	17-01-2005 14:00									#64
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My point is that they still affect us one way or another. Even if we just wiped them out it would cost us time and resources to do so and we'd just be that much further behind ND and GoW. So either way they are important and we need to try to keep good relations with them.

	17-01-2005 14:03									#65
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Speaking of which, I am going to send Computers to Vox accepted in exchange for Fission which they already sent us. The beaker difference, if we determine it is worthwhile to pursue compensation for, could be negotiated later.

	17-01-2005 16:53									#66
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I wonder what GoW and ND are buying Fission with from Vox? I'm inclined to see what GoW have to say about this first rather than rasining it with them - they were researching Fission IIRC, which we were going to trade for with Miniaturisation.

	17-01-2005 23:19									#67
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I would guess that Vox is sending Fission to GoW and ND for future considerations too (ND Rocketry), or to one of them in payment of Radio.

GoW will start researching another tech no doubt, and we can still do the same deal with them for Miniaturisation.

	18-01-2005 00:45									#68
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Maybe I didn't really catch on. Didn't Vox give us the tech for free? I'm certain it requires some kind of compensation, but could we e.g. ask to give flight and amph. warfare to RP? With flight and radio, RP can also go for MI, which will in turn make us safer. And we can't offer flight yet (or can we?)

DeepO

	18-01-2005 01:48									#69
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A note to Vox about Computers would be in order. Thank them for Fission and say we are offering Computers to help avoid duplication of research. Say we are researching Miniaturization and would be interested in trading it for their next tech.

Asking them to trade techs to RP that we can't is a good idea.

	18-01-2005 03:39									#70
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I just lost a post drafting a message to Vox to 'Server Busy'

Bottom line was that I need to dig a little to check the Flight NTA situation.

	18-01-2005 03:55									#71
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OK, Flight was due from GoW on T231. They failed to send it that turn and we recieved it on T232.

If we want, we can claim that the 20-turn NTA should have expired on T250 and we are free to give it on T250.

If so, we could wait two turns - unless if we fear an immediate GoW/ND attack - in which case we might want to jump the gun, but we can only gain a turn at most.

	18-01-2005 04:01									#72
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draft to Vox:

quote: Thank-you for Fission. We sent Computers in reply, and would you be interested in Miniaturisation (our current project) in trade for your next research project?

I thought that the avoidance of duplicate research was somehow implicit, so didn't mention it. I also didn't mention the RP thing - as we're only 2 turns from being able to give Flight to RP.

	18-01-2005 06:03									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus I just lost a post drafting a message to Vox to 'Server Busy'

This happens quite often to me, but in most cases I can recover by just pressing the back button. I am nog using IE, though, it might be different there.

DeepO

	18-01-2005 06:04									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus OK, Flight was due from GoW on T231. They failed to send it that turn and we recieved it on T232. If we want, we can claim that the 20-turn NTA should have expired on T250 and we are free to give it on T250. If so, we could wait two turns - unless if we fear an immediate GoW/ND attack - in which case we might want to jump the gun, but we can only gain a turn at most.

So, if we wait 3 turns, we are clear for flight no matter what. Fine, that won't make a big difference.

One thing we might want to consider is that if we negotiate a deal between Vox and RP, we might also bring those 2 teams together. It won't cost us anything, it might gain us a little...

DeepO

	18-01-2005 06:14									#75
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I just had another idea... why don't we somehow try to work a deal for mil trad in? As long as we haven't got MAs, those 3-move units might help a little, or at least threaten a little. GoW now knows we are in the habit of building units, and using them on another continent the same turn. If we've got the capacity of building cavs, it will require stronger defenses if they want to invade. We do have saltpeter now, it's just the tech we lack.

DeepO

	20-01-2005 15:16									#76
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If Vox are going to vote for GoW, which could be MZ bluffing, is it worth us spending 'campaign money' on their vote? If not, we can definitely ask for Mil Trad as part of a land deal. Or, we hold out on the possibility of angling for Vox's vote - perhaps with the lure of gifting Estonia back - and match GoW's gift of Lego land to Vox.

	20-01-2005 19:20									#77
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We have to either build the UN and not hold a vote, till we can be sure to win or if Vox is not in the bag for us they will have to go.

I understand it will cost us something either way, but we may be able to get GoW to join the fray or hope to get something back via a leader. We will be able to muster a number of elite tanks.

	20-01-2005 20:37									#78
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GoW won't want Vox out of the way if they're after their vote.

	20-01-2005 22:18									#79
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I still don't understand why we couldn't have just asked for Mil Trad, as part of the fission for computers deal. MIs are worth more to them, then knowing where the alu is. It's not too late for this, they might just give us Mil Trad.

Additional land is best given as a gift, I think, but it won't really matter as campaign gifts. If Vox is going to choose a side, it will be based on the relations the past few months, not on what is given in the last turns. MZ has likely been talking to them all along, while we kind of broke off contact right after they left Estonia. We can't change that with a bit of land. We could ask for their vote, as it was only our generosity that kept them in the game, I think that is a far better argument.

Come to think of it, GoW might have made the same argument: that they convinced us after the Lego war to keep our hands off Vox, by offering them protection. They might profile themselves as saviours of Vox. We had very little communications with these guys...

DeepO

	21-01-2005 00:17									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus GoW won't want Vox out of the way if they're after their vote.

That is of course true. What I am suggesting is that if they do not have a commitment from Vox or they are not certain of them, they will be thinking like I am. Either party needs to be sure that Vox is a lock or they should be eliminated, if you do not control the UN.

My concern is that if we do not get either the UN or Vox's vote, we need to move soon, before GoW or ND announce they are in an MPP with Vox. It will be to late then.

So I am suggesting we get an answer to where Vox stands or a commitment to get the UN built.

I just do not want to look up and see we lost a vote by Vox taking anothers side.

I agree with DeepO we are too late to sweet talk them. They are already leaning our way or not. I also agree we should ask if they would give us MT. Stating that we are going to give them land, regarless of what they do with MT, so no pressure there.

	21-01-2005 00:27									#81
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The problem with Vox is that, even if they do not have any significant defenders, they do have very defensive terrain. If we go by land, we would need 7 or 8 turns at least. Using transports and marines is a possibility, but quite cumbersome. And all the while that we focus on Vox, we're open for attacks from other sides.

This all opens up another problem, which we've discussed earlier but haven't done anything about. RP is the real risk here. As long as RP is alive, we have the best shot at the UN, and are in the position to choose who wins. (Unless ND and GoW declare a joint victory, but in that case there is no way we can win in any kind of victory). If Lego gets destroyed, it would even place us in the best situation, as we've got a guaranteed 2 votes, while the others only have 2 at most. So... we need to protect RP. Best way would be to ask them to park a settler either in a transport near the poles, but better, have them park a settler in our core. We can't be destroyed in 1 turn, RP can.

DeepO

	24-01-2005 02:59									#82
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I wish Vox would have sent a screen with what they wanted so we do not have to load up the game to see what land they are talking about.

If I asked someone for land, I would make it so they could see it plainly and not have to do any effort.

	24-01-2005 04:44									#83
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It sounds basically like what MZ has drawn in. The (unknown) position of GoW's cities doesn't make a difference because that land is on GoW's side anyways.

	24-01-2005 04:54									#84
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO ... Best way would be to ask them to park a settler either in a transport near the poles, but better, have them park a settler in our core. We can't be destroyed in 1 turn, RP can. DeepO

I do not believe that this has yet been communicated...

	24-01-2005 23:00									#85
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:rage:

I just typed in a post and it got eaten!

	24-01-2005 23:01									#86
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Lucky I used CTRL-A CTRL-C just before ...

I think I should get back to Beta, saying that we agree to Vox getting the terrain as per the MZ map. Frankly, as we do not have anyone with the chat-time-and-inclination to compete with MZ we have to accept that GoW will beat us on that one, and probably already has Vox's vote. I wouldn't mind asking Beta outright though - are they going to vote for GoW?

If we recognise that we are unlikely to get Vox's vote, we might as well be cheeky and ask for Mil Trad straight up, as DeepO suggests.

	25-01-2005 05:46									#87
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Mil Trad is not going to change their vote in the UN. Those two things are unconnected...

DeepO